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<v ->I'm Annalee Newitz, I'm the tech culture editor and-</v>

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<v ->I'm Cyrus Farivar, I'm the senior business editor.</v>

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<v ->And tonight we're really excited because we have</v>

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law professor Ahmed Ghappour and he is a professor

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at UC Hastings who specializes in national security

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and cyber security, so both kinds of security,

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which we're gonna be talking about tonight in the context

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of the recent Muslim ban among other things.

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I just want to kind of plunge right in because this is

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not something I'm an expert in and I have like a million

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questions for you but one thing that I think a lot

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of people don't realize outside the legal profession

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is that when you cross a border into the U.S., there's

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an exemption from the 4th Amendment, which prevents any-

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there's no limits on searches that can happen.

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Is that right?

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I mean how does that work, how far can they search and

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how far does that exemption go?

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<v ->So just to step back a tiny bit, the 4th Amendment</v>

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is meant to protect persons from unreasonable

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searches and seizures.

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The border exception is essentially an administrative

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search that's justified by the special need.

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Special need being the need to secure the border,

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the need to secure the country, the need to prevent,

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for example unauthorized individuals from entering

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the country and that then justifies the intrusion

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without requiring the specific warrants or burden

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requirements of the 4th Amendment.

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At the end of the day, the functional result of

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the border exception is that your luggage may be searched,

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your car may be searched so long as it qualifies as

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what border patrol would call a routine search or seizure.

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<v ->How does that translate into, I mean you talk about</v>

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like your luggage or your car like a physical object being

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searched what about your data, what about your phone,

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your computer, things like that.

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<v ->So the government has taken the position that routine</v>

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searches extend to digital items, whether they be

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your phone, your hard drive, your computer, they can

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then ask you to, well they can actually physically

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inspect your phone, press buttons, open your laptop

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if your laptop requires a password, they can ask you

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to enter the password.

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You technically don't have to enter the password, but

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then starts the whole cycle of well, let's just

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keep you around for the next 16 hours or so,

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or let's copy your hard drive and send that in

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for analysis, let us detain your phone, it's actually

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and crack it ourselves and look at it and then give it

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back to you.

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Several different sort of iterations, I think the longest

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I have heard of a phone being taken away from somebody

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was something like 90 days, maybe 60 to 90 days.

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<v ->And how long can you be detained if you don't give</v>

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them your password to your phone?

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<v ->I actually tried to look up like the record for</v>

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the longest detention, I have no idea, but it's fairly

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like I've heard reports of detention that's extended more

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than 16 hours.

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<v ->And what's the difference between the treatment that</v>

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you'll get if you're a U.S. citizen, versus someone

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who's not a U.S. citizen, because we just heard about

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this case where a U.S. citizen was returning to the states

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from South America, he works at JPL and he'd been down

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there racing solar cars or whatever and he was told

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he had to unlock his phone and he didn't really know

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what else to do so he just did it.

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<v ->Right, so the main difference between U.S. citizens</v>

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and non-citizens or U.S. citizens and those that are

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not permanent residents or citizens is that citizens

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are, we basically have the right of coming back

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into the country.

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Like how I slipped in that I'm a citizen?

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So please don't detain me on the way on the border.

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[laughter]

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<v ->And this dude was a citizen too, right?</v>

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<v ->Well that's the whole thing so they couldn't</v>

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have denied him entry so long as he proved that he

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was a citizen and so he could've just sat there and said

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well I'm not gonna give you my password.

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Likely what would've happened is either they would

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have detained the phone and copied the phone,

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maybe later following up to try to figure out how

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to get into the phone, whether by hacking it or by,

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which I really don't think happens regularly, we don't

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have the resources for that.

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Or by you know chasing up with a warrant or some

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other form of compulsion.

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But the rule being, if you're a citizen, kind of stand

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your ground a bit because I'd like to see what the

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record is for detention.

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[laughter]

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If you're not a citizen though, just please don't

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travel with electronics.

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<v ->It seems that under the Trump administration,</v>

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there's been a lot of concern about people coming back

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into the U.S. and there was this gentleman as mentioned

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from JPL who didn't know kind of what his rights were,

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and I'm curious, are there other kinds of surveillance

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or other kinds of privacy issues that we should

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be thinking about with respect-beyond just like you know

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searching of your person, of your bag of your phone

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but what about things like, I know for example I think,

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correct me if I'm wrong, I think all foreigners

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have to be like, you know photographed of their face

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and have that be recorded and there's other types of

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physical surveillance that is conducted.

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<v ->Sure yeah, there's a lot of biometric data that's</v>

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obtained at the border of U.S. persons as well as

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non-citizens, I think the main difference and by the

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way I'm not an immigration person so I may be getting this

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all wrong but I think the main difference is that

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when you apply for a visa these days, you actually have

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to hand over your biometrics, in the embassy in the country

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or in the embassy in the country before you actually depart

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to the United States.

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And it might actually be part of your visa these days,

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I'm not entirely sure, but that said, there's biometric

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data all over the place that can be grabbed, whether it's

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you know those ... last time I entered the country

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I had to like adjust my head so it fit into the template.

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<v ->That's actually really hard to do.</v>

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<v ->It's really difficult, I have a bad left knee too, so</v>

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especially after long flights, it's terrible.

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<v ->So you do national security and we have this idea</v>

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of a nation which has borders and they're physical

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borders but they're also electronic borders they're

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also kind of a legal fiction.

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So if I'm crossing the border into the states, what're

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the kinds of things that I can expect to be on that border

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physically that will be documenting my crossing.

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So not just going through customs necessarily but

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if I'm driving in through some back road like are there

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sensors that are there are there drones?

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<v ->Well there will be a wall.</v>

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<v ->Yeah, I hear that there's gonna be a wall.</v>

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<v ->And we're not paying for it.</v>

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<v ->Yeah. [laughing]</v>

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so other than this putative wall, what do we have now

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in terms of a kind of wall?

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<v ->Well what's interesting about the border.</v>

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Within a hundred miles of the border, that's their

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jurisdiction and that results in additional sort of

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investigation and additional type of law enforcement

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activities and significantly reduced rights for immigrants

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in that range then they would have or that they

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would enjoy inside the United States like once they

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get past the legal fiction of the border.

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<v ->So does that mean like they could just be pulled over</v>

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and searched or?

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<v ->With reasonable suspicion, which is typically you</v>

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would need a higher burden for that.

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So for U.S. citizens you would not get searched without

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probable cause for example and for non-citizens there

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would be a lower burden.

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Of course either is very loosey-goosey and so you know

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just like you can indict a ham sandwich, you can

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certainly you know call-that's an actual saying that

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a judge said at some point by the way, an actual judge.

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And the idea was that you can convince a grand jury

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to indict a ham sandwich because they'll just take

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your word for anything.

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Very similarly a finding of reasonable suspicion

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or a finding of probably cause, there's no numerical

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value to it, it just comes down to passing muster

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at the end of the day, and when you have already

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searched somebody and need to then later satisfy that

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burden it's just logically to me it just a pretty

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easy kind of process.

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<v ->Mmhmm, and is there anything else, like I said</v>

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I was sort of wondering are there sensors or drones

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or is that just kind of futuristic?

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<v ->Oh no yeah, there are sensors and drones.</v>

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<v ->That are gathering data about people who are crossing?</v>

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<v ->People who are crossing, who's near the border,</v>

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the question is really, I mean, we have sensors and

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drones inland too, right so, I'm not sure that I would

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completely distinguish that and the sensors and drones

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generally, I'm hard pressed to find protection against

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sensors and drones, I'm not gonna give you my exam,

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okay I'll give you my exam hypo.

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So let's say we wake up one morning and there are drones

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following each and every one of us as soon as we walk

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out of our apartments, and everywhere we go.

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Is that a violation of the 4th Amendment?

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So anyone in my class that is watching, that'll be

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on the exam this year.

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[laughter]

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But the reality is probably, well I'm not gonna give

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away the answer.

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<v ->It feels creepy, but I'm gonna guess that the government</v>

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would argue that that's okay.

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<v ->If I were in the government I would argue it's okay.</v>

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If I were in the ACLU of course I would argue

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it's not okay.

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<v ->Yeah don't I have a reasonable expectation that</v>

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if I'm walking down the street that my every move

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won't be documented?

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I mean I think that is a reasonable expectation.

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Shut up!

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<v ->At the end of the day, the 4th Amendment protects</v>

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unreasonable searches and seizures and I'm not sure

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there's a search there.

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I think personally, oh boy, I think it's a first amendment

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violation, for example, like a clear first amendment

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violation if we're followed all over the place.

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It'll chill our activity, chill our speech.

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It's not as clear to me that it would be a 4th amendment

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violation but you know extra points if you argue that

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on my exam.

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I'm not gonna talk about the test anymore.

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[laughter]

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<v ->So what about things like, you know we've had recently</v>

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a discussion about government officials, border officials

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asking people to hand over not just passwords to the devices

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but say passwords to their social media accounts,

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or other kinds of things like that.

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Are there other concerns or maybe situations that you

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personally have been in as you've traveled in and

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out of the U.S. where you've been asked to disclose

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or unlock a device or unlock a certain account that you have

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to demonstrate that nothing terrible is on there or

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anything like that?

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<v ->So the only time that ever happened to me in the</v>

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United States was right after 9/11, it's a really long

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story, but and it's always a long story right,

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I was running Linux on a laptop and they asked me

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to open the laptop.

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<v Cyrus>Of course you were.</v>

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<v ->Yeah, and I opened the laptop-it was before I</v>

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went to law school I opened the laptop and they see like

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this penguin on the laptop and they were like

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what the eff is this?

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[laughter]

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<v ->Sounds dangerous.</v>

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<v ->Yeah they wanted to see the Windows screen and I didn't</v>

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have one and it was a problem because I had to explain

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Linux to this guy.

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<v ->You didn't have like, Gnome or something?</v>

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<v ->Well, okay, what's Gnome.</v>

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<v ->Okay, nevermind.</v>

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<v ->Like why is there a penguin on your screen?</v>

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And then what is all this gibberish and what is the

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command prompt and what the fuck, right?

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That's what happened, and this is right after 9/11,

247
00:11:55.136 --> 00:11:59.303
in Newark I was supposed to get my citizenship on 9/11

248
00:12:00.782 --> 00:12:03.619
it's a true story, in Newark, I did not get it that day.

249
00:12:03.619 --> 00:12:07.708
My mother who was in the building in the second tower

250
00:12:07.708 --> 00:12:10.861
when really bad stuff happened and finally gets out,

251
00:12:10.861 --> 00:12:13.546
finally calls the family doesn't even tell us she's okay,

252
00:12:13.546 --> 00:12:17.629
she's like did you go to the INS building, Ahmed?

253
00:12:20.229 --> 00:12:22.545
Did you go to the INS building and then the phone

254
00:12:22.545 --> 00:12:24.151
clicks off, and I'm like shit, I gotta go to

255
00:12:24.151 --> 00:12:25.305
the INS building now.

256
00:12:25.305 --> 00:12:27.377
They were obviously closed, so anyway.

257
00:12:27.377 --> 00:12:29.627
[laughter]

258
00:12:31.002 --> 00:12:33.025
<v ->I'm glad that she had her eye on what was-</v>

259
00:12:33.025 --> 00:12:34.466
<v ->She's always had her eye on it.</v>

260
00:12:34.466 --> 00:12:37.569
<v ->Yeah, you know citizenship is really, is really important.</v>

261
00:12:37.569 --> 00:12:41.736
So in the wake of you know Trump's talk about a Muslim ban

262
00:12:43.941 --> 00:12:48.108
and you know all of the new regulations that immigrants

263
00:12:49.851 --> 00:12:53.441
are subject to, we've also seen an escalation in ICE

264
00:12:53.441 --> 00:12:56.088
deporting people who've been in the states for a long time

265
00:12:56.088 --> 00:13:00.302
and I'm wondering, I mean, they're not responding to any

266
00:13:00.302 --> 00:13:02.996
particular new regulations it's almost as if there's

267
00:13:02.996 --> 00:13:05.482
a shift in national mood that's kind of dictating

268
00:13:05.482 --> 00:13:08.622
changes in behavior is that because there's just a lot

269
00:13:08.622 --> 00:13:11.717
of leeway in interpreting regulations?

270
00:13:11.717 --> 00:13:12.711
What's going on?

271
00:13:12.711 --> 00:13:15.686
<v ->I think at least in part, I haven't read reports that</v>

272
00:13:15.686 --> 00:13:18.331
they're actually violating regulations or that the increased

273
00:13:18.331 --> 00:13:22.292
deportations are in violation of regulations so that

274
00:13:22.292 --> 00:13:26.459
could just come down to you know office level policy

275
00:13:27.711 --> 00:13:32.314
to-same thing like a police station or a police department

276
00:13:32.314 --> 00:13:33.722
might have a quota for tickets, they might say

277
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go get those immigrants this week.

278
00:13:36.710 --> 00:13:38.775
<v ->So it's staying within the law but it's just changing</v>

279
00:13:38.775 --> 00:13:40.797
the focus of what they're doing.

280
00:13:40.797 --> 00:13:43.939
<v ->Yeah, or maybe the intensity, and that's just the way</v>

281
00:13:43.939 --> 00:13:47.748
that the administrative state works, so long as they're

282
00:13:47.748 --> 00:13:50.761
staying within the authority that they're permitted

283
00:13:50.761 --> 00:13:52.160
to operate within.

284
00:13:52.160 --> 00:13:55.389
<v ->And is this typical for what happens when we see</v>

285
00:13:55.389 --> 00:13:58.286
tightening of borders, that we see kind of knock on effects

286
00:13:58.286 --> 00:14:00.979
in other agencies that deal with immigrants?

287
00:14:00.979 --> 00:14:04.321
<v ->I'm not entirely sure, what's perplexing is that the</v>

288
00:14:04.321 --> 00:14:07.172
I think the record number of deportations at least

289
00:14:07.172 --> 00:14:10.592
in my life have been under the Obama administration

290
00:14:10.592 --> 00:14:14.411
and so a lot of these regulations that we might complain

291
00:14:14.411 --> 00:14:17.211
of now were actually sort of remnants from that

292
00:14:17.211 --> 00:14:19.857
administration that are being applied maybe to

293
00:14:19.857 --> 00:14:23.607
their maximum or sort of increased intensity.

294
00:14:25.155 --> 00:14:28.426
Much as you know there was-many would argue that

295
00:14:28.426 --> 00:14:31.332
the Obama administration in a vast sort of wide

296
00:14:31.332 --> 00:14:34.258
interpretation of executive power and that is sort of

297
00:14:34.258 --> 00:14:38.363
being taken now to another level by what's his name?

298
00:14:38.363 --> 00:14:39.363
<v ->Voldemort?</v>

299
00:14:40.431 --> 00:14:41.931
<v ->Right, that guy.</v>

300
00:14:44.545 --> 00:14:49.132
<v ->So as right now you focus on cyber security, criminal law,</v>

301
00:14:49.132 --> 00:14:50.913
national security, things like that.

302
00:14:50.913 --> 00:14:54.183
You've also had a lot of experience working on other

303
00:14:54.183 --> 00:14:57.491
kinds of things you worked on some Guantanamo cases as well,

304
00:14:57.491 --> 00:15:00.636
you worked on the case of a gentleman named Isa Dore

305
00:15:00.636 --> 00:15:02.959
in a case called United States versus Moalin,

306
00:15:02.959 --> 00:15:05.685
a Somali cab driver in San Diego who was charged under

307
00:15:05.685 --> 00:15:09.852
a section 215 the metadata NSA case that is still ongoing,

308
00:15:13.901 --> 00:15:15.533
you're looking at me like I'm ...

309
00:15:15.533 --> 00:15:16.978
<v ->Yeah well he was charged with material support of</v>

310
00:15:16.978 --> 00:15:21.942
terrorism which essentially is providing money to

311
00:15:21.942 --> 00:15:24.304
Al Shabaab and Somalia.

312
00:15:24.304 --> 00:15:26.959
<v ->Right, so you represented one of Moalin's ...</v>

313
00:15:26.959 --> 00:15:27.989
<v ->Codefendents.</v>

314
00:15:27.989 --> 00:15:29.603
<v ->Codefendents, so I'm curious given you experience</v>

315
00:15:29.603 --> 00:15:33.770
in Guantanamo and with Mr. Dore, do you feel like now

316
00:15:36.130 --> 00:15:40.297
in the United States is there-should immigrants be more

317
00:15:42.009 --> 00:15:44.494
concerned, especially people that come from these now

318
00:15:44.494 --> 00:15:48.655
seven countries that are under kind of increased suspicion.

319
00:15:48.655 --> 00:15:51.009
People from Somalia, people from Iran or Syria or

320
00:15:51.009 --> 00:15:52.701
other places like that.

321
00:15:52.701 --> 00:15:56.006
<v ->Absolutely, yes and in fact, this has been my position</v>

322
00:15:56.006 --> 00:15:59.137
for a while and this is why, by the way when I say

323
00:15:59.137 --> 00:16:02.238
the ACLU doesn't let me do know your rights events

324
00:16:02.238 --> 00:16:04.133
with them, I don't really mean it because I love the

325
00:16:04.133 --> 00:16:05.332
folks at the ACLU.

326
00:16:05.332 --> 00:16:07.654
But if I were in the ACLU I wouldn't let me do know your

327
00:16:07.654 --> 00:16:11.138
rights presentations with them, because I would get up

328
00:16:11.138 --> 00:16:13.789
in front of a giant crowd of Somali-Americans and tell

329
00:16:13.789 --> 00:16:15.525
them guess what guys, y'all don't have that many rights.

330
00:16:15.525 --> 00:16:17.300
So shut the fuck up.

331
00:16:17.300 --> 00:16:18.577
That's what I would say.

332
00:16:18.577 --> 00:16:20.858
But unfortunately I mean-

333
00:16:20.858 --> 00:16:21.845
<v ->Wait what does that mean exactly?</v>

334
00:16:21.845 --> 00:16:25.239
<v ->That means that if you are a certain type of person,</v>

335
00:16:25.239 --> 00:16:27.810
if you're a certain ethnicity in America these days ...

336
00:16:27.810 --> 00:16:29.961
<v ->Like a Somali immigrant?</v>

337
00:16:29.961 --> 00:16:32.581
<v ->Like a Somali immigrant, and let's say you are expressing</v>

338
00:16:32.581 --> 00:16:36.748
anti-government views, let's say you are lashing out

339
00:16:38.443 --> 00:16:40.967
at the government for anything that you perceive them

340
00:16:40.967 --> 00:16:44.234
doing to you or your people, that's completely permitted

341
00:16:44.234 --> 00:16:48.401
by the first amendment, but certain types of speech

342
00:16:50.678 --> 00:16:53.989
when combined with certain types of ethnicities

343
00:16:53.989 --> 00:16:58.395
and religions can be used to you know, fill out a warrant

344
00:16:58.395 --> 00:17:01.215
application for a FISA tap, who the hell knows, right?

345
00:17:01.215 --> 00:17:03.440
And I've actually seen that at least, not for a FISA tap,

346
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.260
but for other warrant applications.

347
00:17:06.260 --> 00:17:08.149
I mean, I've talked to FBI agents that tell me that

348
00:17:08.149 --> 00:17:12.496
terrorism is an ideology and that is very difficult to

349
00:17:12.496 --> 00:17:14.413
distinguish from Islam.

350
00:17:15.265 --> 00:17:17.709
So at some point we have to really come to terms with the

351
00:17:17.709 --> 00:17:21.876
fact that it's actually not-it's a different sort of

352
00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:26.182
set of rights for certain people.

353
00:17:26.182 --> 00:17:29.628
If the goal is to assert your rights, that's great

354
00:17:29.628 --> 00:17:31.605
if you want to assert your rights and then go to jail

355
00:17:31.605 --> 00:17:32.842
for them, that's totally fine, you want to be wire tapped,

356
00:17:32.842 --> 00:17:35.490
totally fine, but if you want to assert your rights

357
00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:38.305
and get away with it, probably not a good idea

358
00:17:38.305 --> 00:17:41.537
to say much of anything these days.

359
00:17:41.537 --> 00:17:43.757
Of course if you're watching at home and you're

360
00:17:43.757 --> 00:17:46.719
Somali-American please go to the ACLU website and

361
00:17:46.719 --> 00:17:49.835
see the real rights that you have and then you know,

362
00:17:49.835 --> 00:17:51.741
make your own decision.

363
00:17:51.741 --> 00:17:54.996
<v ->So what are some of the-I mean this is really interesting</v>

364
00:17:54.996 --> 00:17:59.710
to me because you, so if someone is an immigrant from

365
00:17:59.710 --> 00:18:03.877
one of the seven deadly countries right now, is the problem

366
00:18:05.648 --> 00:18:10.022
if one of those people were to criticize the government,

367
00:18:10.022 --> 00:18:12.581
or is it engaging in any kind of speech that might be

368
00:18:12.581 --> 00:18:15.567
considered a dissident form of speech, like what if they

369
00:18:15.567 --> 00:18:19.334
are writing about feminism or what if they're writing

370
00:18:19.334 --> 00:18:23.142
about something else that like gets a lot of attention?

371
00:18:23.142 --> 00:18:27.142
<v ->I just apply the same rule to almost anything.</v>

372
00:18:28.851 --> 00:18:31.790
So for instance, it all starts with something that

373
00:18:31.790 --> 00:18:34.846
American society or law enforcement in particular might

374
00:18:34.846 --> 00:18:37.530
not understand that well, so that could be, you know

375
00:18:37.530 --> 00:18:40.593
Somali-Americans, and their culture, it could be

376
00:18:40.593 --> 00:18:44.985
Islamic culture, it could be quite frankly like

377
00:18:44.985 --> 00:18:46.885
sys-admin culture.

378
00:18:46.885 --> 00:18:50.306
Which they really don't get and by the way sys-admins

379
00:18:50.306 --> 00:18:53.288
and computery type people are a huge threat to the

380
00:18:53.288 --> 00:18:56.254
United States according to both this

381
00:18:56.254 --> 00:18:57.870
and last administration.

382
00:18:57.870 --> 00:19:00.677
So you know and also very outspoken.

383
00:19:00.677 --> 00:19:03.117
<v ->Yeah I was gonna say like if you're Somali-American</v>

384
00:19:03.117 --> 00:19:05.020
and you're talking about crypto a lot, that might be-

385
00:19:05.020 --> 00:19:06.590
<v ->That might actually be safe.</v>

386
00:19:06.590 --> 00:19:07.710
<v ->Really?</v>

387
00:19:07.710 --> 00:19:08.699
<v ->I dunno-</v>

388
00:19:08.699 --> 00:19:12.920
<v ->Isn't the EPA in trouble for using Signal right now,</v>

389
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.452
because it's cryptography, dangerous cryptography.

390
00:19:16.452 --> 00:19:17.692
<v ->Yeah but their part of the government, right that's the</v>

391
00:19:17.692 --> 00:19:20.471
whole idea because they're an agency and they're

392
00:19:20.471 --> 00:19:22.211
communicating using encryption because they're afraid

393
00:19:22.211 --> 00:19:25.059
of their own boss, that's sort of where that comes from.

394
00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:29.226
But you know, I'm not saying that being a Somalian and

395
00:19:30.936 --> 00:19:35.239
talking about encryption will not result in trouble-

396
00:19:35.239 --> 00:19:36.935
<v ->But that's not like an area that you consider to</v>

397
00:19:36.935 --> 00:19:38.099
be a danger topic.

398
00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:41.033
<v ->I just have never, I don't think that any agent-that it</v>

399
00:19:41.033 --> 00:19:44.636
would click in any agent's head like whoa, they're talking

400
00:19:44.636 --> 00:19:47.002
about encryption we should get a wire tap.

401
00:19:47.002 --> 00:19:47.991
<v ->But talking about Linux or something like that.</v>

402
00:19:47.991 --> 00:19:49.230
<v ->Well it was just the penguin.</v>

403
00:19:49.230 --> 00:19:51.755
[laughter]

404
00:19:51.755 --> 00:19:53.826
They're scary, they're not scary they're actually very

405
00:19:53.826 --> 00:19:55.243
lovely creatures.

406
00:19:57.590 --> 00:20:01.756
No my point is it just starts with-the more something

407
00:20:01.756 --> 00:20:05.756
is unknown the more you can sort of play with it

408
00:20:06.840 --> 00:20:09.859
to make it seem suspect, it's a really simple rule.

409
00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:13.638
So for instance, there's a proposed bill I think

410
00:20:13.638 --> 00:20:17.145
in Arizona to abolish gender studies, you were saying

411
00:20:17.145 --> 00:20:18.140
feminism, right?

412
00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:21.320
So let's say all of a sudden now we think that folks

413
00:20:21.320 --> 00:20:25.320
that do gender studies are a threat to security.

414
00:20:27.157 --> 00:20:31.333
And then all of a sudden, I wouldn't talk about anything

415
00:20:31.333 --> 00:20:34.907
having to do with gender studies.

416
00:20:34.907 --> 00:20:35.740
Really I wouldn't.

417
00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:36.967
<v ->Yeah, stay safe.</v>

418
00:20:36.967 --> 00:20:37.800
<v ->Exactly.</v>

419
00:20:39.121 --> 00:20:40.572
<v ->So I'd be really curious to hear about your own</v>

420
00:20:40.572 --> 00:20:45.116
experience as somebody who has traveled for your work,

421
00:20:45.116 --> 00:20:48.634
for your personal, professional work in and out of the U.S.

422
00:20:48.634 --> 00:20:53.445
if you, you know, dare I say with the name Ahmed if you've

423
00:20:53.445 --> 00:20:56.008
had any issues at the border yourself, if you've been

424
00:20:56.008 --> 00:20:58.949
asked to unlock devices, or you've been asked weird

425
00:20:58.949 --> 00:21:02.783
questions, you know you mentioned the Linux thing on 9/11

426
00:21:02.783 --> 00:21:04.571
but anything more recent than that?

427
00:21:04.571 --> 00:21:06.347
<v ->Yeah, you know what's funny is you asked me this question</v>

428
00:21:06.347 --> 00:21:10.226
this morning and since then, I didn't think that were

429
00:21:10.226 --> 00:21:13.373
that many occasions but then I've been-they've been

430
00:21:13.373 --> 00:21:16.800
coming back to me right, it's really weird.

431
00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:18.122
<v ->Memories have a weird way of doing that.</v>

432
00:21:18.122 --> 00:21:21.011
<v ->Yeah, so I guess, I've been stopped a few times, I</v>

433
00:21:21.011 --> 00:21:24.928
haven't been stopped in the U.S. for some time.

434
00:21:27.551 --> 00:21:31.043
I got-when I did Guantanamo work and that started

435
00:21:31.043 --> 00:21:34.588
I guess in like 2007, I got a security clearance

436
00:21:34.588 --> 00:21:38.006
and getting a security clearance I think, well it definitely

437
00:21:38.006 --> 00:21:40.107
involved and FBI investigation, it definitely involved

438
00:21:40.107 --> 00:21:44.386
like the full sort of gamut and since then I haven't

439
00:21:44.386 --> 00:21:48.428
had any issues at airports in the United States.

440
00:21:48.428 --> 00:21:49.547
Outside the United States is a different story.

441
00:21:49.547 --> 00:21:52.439
So there's the laptop incident, there is-I was driving

442
00:21:52.439 --> 00:21:56.081
into the U.S. from Canada with a car and I got held

443
00:21:56.081 --> 00:22:00.385
over for four or five hours but that's, it's a fairly

444
00:22:00.385 --> 00:22:03.593
again keyword, routine stop where they just went through

445
00:22:03.593 --> 00:22:06.693
everything in my car and then just you know, let me go.

446
00:22:06.693 --> 00:22:09.443
So it's very routine in that way.

447
00:22:10.411 --> 00:22:11.402
<v ->And you didn't when something like that happened,</v>

448
00:22:11.402 --> 00:22:13.677
where you were held for hours, four or five hours, did you

449
00:22:13.677 --> 00:22:17.107
feel like, oh man my rights are really being violated

450
00:22:17.107 --> 00:22:19.811
or were you just like okay I get it, I'm just gonna

451
00:22:19.811 --> 00:22:20.847
play this out?

452
00:22:20.847 --> 00:22:24.285
<v ->I-well the truth is I had just gone through a breakup,</v>

453
00:22:24.285 --> 00:22:26.309
I didn't really care, I just wanted to get

454
00:22:26.309 --> 00:22:28.581
through the border back to San Fransisco.

455
00:22:28.581 --> 00:22:31.924
There was a really-so combining all the stories, there

456
00:22:31.924 --> 00:22:34.519
was one time I spent probably almost three weeks in

457
00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:37.830
Guantanamo we had a bunch of hearings so I was with my

458
00:22:37.830 --> 00:22:41.997
clients and then I was so busy I forgot to book a flight

459
00:22:43.397 --> 00:22:45.294
out and it was right around Christmas, I was working

460
00:22:45.294 --> 00:22:48.563
out of London at the time, so I had to go from

461
00:22:48.563 --> 00:22:51.041
Guantanamo Bay to London somehow, there were no flights out

462
00:22:51.041 --> 00:22:55.636
because of Christmas, so finally I got a flight out

463
00:22:55.636 --> 00:23:00.343
to Jamaica, I mean a lot of the workers in Guantanamo

464
00:23:00.343 --> 00:23:03.527
are from Jamaica, actually all the firemen in Guantanamo

465
00:23:03.527 --> 00:23:07.124
are from Jamaica, a very random fact there.

466
00:23:07.124 --> 00:23:10.052
So we get to Jamaica, I get held up in Jamaica because

467
00:23:10.052 --> 00:23:12.696
they're like, this is weird, you're not a fireman

468
00:23:12.696 --> 00:23:14.640
or Jamaican, and you're in Jamaica coming from

469
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.737
Guantanamo, that's really really strange given how

470
00:23:17.737 --> 00:23:19.675
you look and what your name is.

471
00:23:19.675 --> 00:23:23.721
So we had a chat about it that lasted a few hours, then

472
00:23:23.721 --> 00:23:26.921
I had a really insane night in Jamaica, got on a plane

473
00:23:26.921 --> 00:23:29.770
the next day, and went to JFK.

474
00:23:29.770 --> 00:23:33.937
I got to JFK and the customs officer wanted to see my visa

475
00:23:35.935 --> 00:23:40.105
to Cuba and I was like I was in Guantanamo Bay.

476
00:23:40.105 --> 00:23:42.945
And they're like well that's Cuba, I need a visa.

477
00:23:42.945 --> 00:23:46.254
And I said no, it's a U.S. territory.

478
00:23:46.254 --> 00:23:47.987
[laughing]

479
00:23:47.987 --> 00:23:48.976
And they said no, it's Cuba.

480
00:23:48.976 --> 00:23:51.248
Sorry to everybody in Oakland, I don't really mean that,

481
00:23:51.248 --> 00:23:53.397
but I was trying to get in the country, right, and

482
00:23:53.397 --> 00:23:55.873
U.S. claims it's a U.S. territory, the IRS claims

483
00:23:55.873 --> 00:24:00.481
it's a U.S. territory, I was paying taxes as somebody

484
00:24:00.481 --> 00:24:02.857
that spent a certain amount of time in U.S. territories

485
00:24:02.857 --> 00:24:05.081
and no, he wasn't buying it he was like this is Cuba,

486
00:24:05.081 --> 00:24:07.484
I need to see a visa, you shouldn't have left, you shouldn't

487
00:24:07.484 --> 00:24:09.628
have gotten in now you come back and like, I'm gonna

488
00:24:09.628 --> 00:24:12.777
detain you and all this other stuff.

489
00:24:12.777 --> 00:24:15.088
Which I was really looking forward to because at the time

490
00:24:15.088 --> 00:24:18.862
our strategy around the Guantanamo litigation was to

491
00:24:18.862 --> 00:24:21.084
generate as much press as possible and being like

492
00:24:21.084 --> 00:24:24.760
the guy named Ahmed getting detained in JFK as a lawyer

493
00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:28.654
just because I'm a lawyer, that would have been awesome.

494
00:24:28.654 --> 00:24:33.129
And so I explained that to the officer, and you know

495
00:24:33.129 --> 00:24:36.728
and then I told him I could have his expletive face

496
00:24:36.728 --> 00:24:39.864
on the cover of the New York Times and then he let me go.

497
00:24:39.864 --> 00:24:41.692
So that was nice.

498
00:24:41.692 --> 00:24:46.203
Of course then I get on the train and anyone been to

499
00:24:46.203 --> 00:24:49.842
New York in the past like four years, so subways have

500
00:24:49.842 --> 00:24:52.817
random stops now, so I'm on the subway, and then I'm

501
00:24:52.817 --> 00:24:56.984
tryin' to change trains oh no, actually I'm going down

502
00:24:58.145 --> 00:25:02.776
this long staircase there are a whole bunch of cops

503
00:25:02.776 --> 00:25:05.917
downstairs waiting to randomly search me.

504
00:25:05.917 --> 00:25:09.475
I've got bags of things and I've got like papers from

505
00:25:09.475 --> 00:25:12.872
all my clients, half the stuff is in Arabic, it looks

506
00:25:12.872 --> 00:25:15.678
just so bad but I'm like so emboldened at this point,

507
00:25:15.678 --> 00:25:18.114
because I got through weeks in Guantanamo, I got through

508
00:25:18.114 --> 00:25:22.031
Jamaica got through this border patrol dude, so

509
00:25:23.210 --> 00:25:26.565
you know I just waltz up to the cops and I'm like

510
00:25:26.565 --> 00:25:28.594
hey guys, random stop, huh?

511
00:25:28.594 --> 00:25:29.624
They're like yeah.

512
00:25:29.624 --> 00:25:33.014
And so I said I'm not showing you anything in this bag.

513
00:25:33.014 --> 00:25:34.127
And they said what?

514
00:25:34.127 --> 00:25:36.776
And I said well, it's all attorney-client privilege and

515
00:25:36.776 --> 00:25:41.216
you should call your general council because he was

516
00:25:41.216 --> 00:25:43.366
my law professor, something like that, I sounded like

517
00:25:43.366 --> 00:25:44.449
so obnoxious.

518
00:25:45.933 --> 00:25:46.928
<v ->Was that true?</v>

519
00:25:46.928 --> 00:25:49.862
<v ->Well he was a professor at NYU and he did do a guest</v>

520
00:25:49.862 --> 00:25:52.801
lecture where he showed us how he made it legal

521
00:25:52.801 --> 00:25:56.642
to do the random stops, so I kind of like mentioned that

522
00:25:56.642 --> 00:26:01.300
and then they called somebody actually, oh then just

523
00:26:01.300 --> 00:26:05.123
because I was so high on myself, I took out like

524
00:26:05.123 --> 00:26:08.796
a piece of paper with like, it looked so shady it had

525
00:26:08.796 --> 00:26:13.664
like Arabic writing on it, like maps and weird diagrams,

526
00:26:13.664 --> 00:26:16.529
sorry they were diagrams and they were weird and it was

527
00:26:16.529 --> 00:26:20.612
stamped with unclassified, with an official stamp

528
00:26:22.758 --> 00:26:24.863
because that's how I could remove it out of Guantanamo.

529
00:26:24.863 --> 00:26:27.016
And they were just like, yeah we're gonna call, we need

530
00:26:27.016 --> 00:26:28.535
to call somebody.

531
00:26:28.535 --> 00:26:31.060
[laughter]

532
00:26:31.060 --> 00:26:32.258
So they wound up searching all my shit,

533
00:26:32.258 --> 00:26:34.571
except for the papers, but like they made a whole display

534
00:26:34.571 --> 00:26:38.829
of it, it deflated my ego big time as is obvious right

535
00:26:38.829 --> 00:26:40.746
through this interview.

536
00:26:42.663 --> 00:26:43.819
<v ->You got some good trolling in though.</v>

537
00:26:43.819 --> 00:26:45.516
<v ->Oh my god it was great.</v>

538
00:26:45.516 --> 00:26:47.882
<v ->Yeah, very few people could do that.</v>

539
00:26:47.882 --> 00:26:49.249
<v ->Troll the cops?</v>

540
00:26:49.249 --> 00:26:52.999
<v ->Yeah, so that was really brave and awesome.</v>

541
00:26:54.485 --> 00:26:57.737
So do we want to open up to questions from the audience?

542
00:26:57.737 --> 00:26:59.725
So if you have a question come up here,

543
00:26:59.725 --> 00:27:00.972
talk into my microphone.

544
00:27:00.972 --> 00:27:03.407
<v ->That's not a threat.</v>

545
00:27:03.407 --> 00:27:05.510
<v ->It's not a threat, yeah we won't search you.</v>

546
00:27:05.510 --> 00:27:08.989
<v ->Unless you try to come through the border.</v>

547
00:27:08.989 --> 00:27:11.669
<v Man>Through a lot of media I've heard the recommendation</v>

548
00:27:11.669 --> 00:27:14.480
just never bring an electronic device over the border

549
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:17.580
at the risk that someone might be inclined to want to

550
00:27:17.580 --> 00:27:21.877
search it, legally, like what's the difference between

551
00:27:21.877 --> 00:27:26.044
mailing your own phone to your permanent resident address

552
00:27:27.465 --> 00:27:29.902
in the United States like to re-enter the country

553
00:27:29.902 --> 00:27:31.849
or something like that, like if I didn't want to bring

554
00:27:31.849 --> 00:27:34.412
my phone on my person through airport security, could

555
00:27:34.412 --> 00:27:36.067
I just mail it and like what's the difference between

556
00:27:36.067 --> 00:27:40.653
like a police officer asking for me to like sign into

557
00:27:40.653 --> 00:27:43.511
Facebook on a personal phone, 'cause Facebook doesn't

558
00:27:43.511 --> 00:27:46.922
live on my phone, like if I did not have a phone will

559
00:27:46.922 --> 00:27:48.974
a phone be like produced for me so that I can sign

560
00:27:48.974 --> 00:27:51.908
into my Facebook account while I'm there?

561
00:27:51.908 --> 00:27:54.216
<v ->So like they'll give you a computer and be like</v>

562
00:27:54.216 --> 00:27:55.208
sign into Facebook?

563
00:27:55.208 --> 00:27:56.241
<v ->Yeah.</v>

564
00:27:56.241 --> 00:27:57.233
And like, would that also be possible for like Dropbox

565
00:27:57.233 --> 00:28:00.650
or Google Drive, or I don't know I've got

566
00:28:02.033 --> 00:28:03.311
a lot of information-

567
00:28:03.311 --> 00:28:04.960
<v ->I don't remember any of my passwords.</v>

568
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:06.400
[laughter]

569
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.233
<v ->Is that legal advice just to forget all of your passwords?</v>

570
00:28:09.233 --> 00:28:10.569
<v ->I dunno, is it?</v>

571
00:28:10.569 --> 00:28:11.986
No but seriously.

572
00:28:13.872 --> 00:28:16.465
So those of you watching at home, the way to be a good

573
00:28:16.465 --> 00:28:19.221
lawyer is to just turn the questions back.

574
00:28:19.221 --> 00:28:23.333
But, yes you should definitely-well, you should definitely

575
00:28:23.333 --> 00:28:27.500
mail your items unless I tweet otherwise, but I'm almost

576
00:28:32.965 --> 00:28:36.197
100% sure that, well any administrative search that

577
00:28:36.197 --> 00:28:40.195
would apply to parcels or items coming in the country

578
00:28:40.195 --> 00:28:44.339
would probably be something that like scans them as

579
00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:46.743
opposed to actually like opening the product and trying

580
00:28:46.743 --> 00:28:49.429
to get into the phone, and so I think you would be safe

581
00:28:49.429 --> 00:28:52.871
in terms of a password protected, encrypted device.

582
00:28:52.871 --> 00:28:54.788
In terms of mailing it.

583
00:28:57.432 --> 00:29:00.261
The other question about how would one administer the

584
00:29:00.261 --> 00:29:04.588
social media stuff, I'm not sure-well I don't think

585
00:29:04.588 --> 00:29:06.222
they would administer it that way, but who knows because

586
00:29:06.222 --> 00:29:08.704
they're have been stupider ideas that have already

587
00:29:08.704 --> 00:29:12.871
flown with this administration but I think at the end

588
00:29:14.669 --> 00:29:18.183
of the day, and again I'm not completely up to speed

589
00:29:18.183 --> 00:29:20.781
on this stuff but I think the social media accounts

590
00:29:20.781 --> 00:29:22.965
or at least the scrutiny that they want to give

591
00:29:22.965 --> 00:29:25.608
social media accounts for folks applying for visas

592
00:29:25.608 --> 00:29:29.494
and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would all

593
00:29:29.494 --> 00:29:32.350
happen before a visa is granted.

594
00:29:32.350 --> 00:29:35.368
So there's a lot of stuff you could do if somebody

595
00:29:35.368 --> 00:29:37.265
consents to it, right I mean, the end of the day like

596
00:29:37.265 --> 00:29:40.614
this guy that was working at NASA was it JPL or NASA?

597
00:29:40.614 --> 00:29:43.447
<v ->JPL, which is connected to NASA.</v>

598
00:29:45.902 --> 00:29:47.913
<v ->He consensually provided his password, right?</v>

599
00:29:47.913 --> 00:29:51.338
So at the end of the day, that was not a search by any means

600
00:29:51.338 --> 00:29:53.530
unless, now we're thinking that somebody coerced him

601
00:29:53.530 --> 00:29:56.713
into doing it, which is a different story.

602
00:29:56.713 --> 00:30:00.880
I don't think that if you are traveling-what I do when

603
00:30:01.724 --> 00:30:05.891
I travel is-and I'm worried, I take a different device

604
00:30:06.778 --> 00:30:10.704
altogether, and I don't keep any data on it and that

605
00:30:10.704 --> 00:30:12.371
way it's easy peasy.

606
00:30:13.257 --> 00:30:16.468
<v ->But if they asked you to put in your password to</v>

607
00:30:16.468 --> 00:30:17.504
your phone?

608
00:30:17.504 --> 00:30:18.491
<v ->Hell no.</v>

609
00:30:18.491 --> 00:30:19.483
<v ->So you'd say no?</v>

610
00:30:19.483 --> 00:30:20.512
<v ->Sorry, absolutely not, never, never, never.</v>

611
00:30:20.512 --> 00:30:24.280
<v ->So you have your clean phone, doesn't matter just say no,</v>

612
00:30:24.280 --> 00:30:25.305
I will not-

613
00:30:25.305 --> 00:30:28.549
<v ->No, and well if you want to be sort of like, you could</v>

614
00:30:28.549 --> 00:30:31.494
start by saying no, then you could say I forget, then you

615
00:30:31.494 --> 00:30:33.606
could say you're stressing me out, and then if you're not

616
00:30:33.606 --> 00:30:35.297
a U.S. citizen just keep in mind that they could

617
00:30:35.297 --> 00:30:36.331
send you back, that's the whole problem.

618
00:30:36.331 --> 00:30:39.310
If you're a U.S. citizen you will get through,

619
00:30:39.310 --> 00:30:42.464
if you're a legal permanent resident I don't think

620
00:30:42.464 --> 00:30:46.521
there is precedent on that exactly, again I would

621
00:30:46.521 --> 00:30:48.506
have to look into it but I don't think there is

622
00:30:48.506 --> 00:30:50.779
precedent one way or the other.

623
00:30:50.779 --> 00:30:53.581
But if you're a citizen just plow on forward, especially

624
00:30:53.581 --> 00:30:55.568
if you're a white person.

625
00:30:55.568 --> 00:30:57.429
That would be really, I mean look at Laura Poitras ...

626
00:30:57.429 --> 00:31:01.936
Right I mean ... do we know who-I'm sure you all know

627
00:31:01.936 --> 00:31:03.684
who she is but-

628
00:31:03.684 --> 00:31:05.985
<v ->Documentary filmmaker.</v>

629
00:31:05.985 --> 00:31:06.968
<v ->Yeah every single time she left the country she got</v>

630
00:31:06.968 --> 00:31:10.885
held over for what like six years or something.

631
00:31:13.331 --> 00:31:17.269
And actually when I first met Laura, that's how we bonded

632
00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:19.711
over our paranoia of the government.

633
00:31:19.711 --> 00:31:20.868
She's like I get stopped every time.

634
00:31:20.868 --> 00:31:25.002
I'm like I don't get stopped, it terrifies me.

635
00:31:25.002 --> 00:31:26.954
And then it was a thing.

636
00:31:26.954 --> 00:31:29.435
<v ->So have there been any developments with forcing</v>

637
00:31:29.435 --> 00:31:32.004
people to provide their fingerprints for the touch ID on

638
00:31:32.004 --> 00:31:34.082
iPhone or anything else?

639
00:31:34.082 --> 00:31:36.629
'Cause apparently that's considered to be separate,

640
00:31:36.629 --> 00:31:40.796
like it's a biological-as opposed to a password or

641
00:31:43.085 --> 00:31:44.688
something that's in your head right?

642
00:31:44.688 --> 00:31:48.582
And you can be forced to provide something that's part

643
00:31:48.582 --> 00:31:53.350
of who you are, versus something you know, so have there

644
00:31:53.350 --> 00:31:54.963
been any developments regarding that?

645
00:31:54.963 --> 00:31:59.130
<v ->Well I think it's complicated, the short answer is no.</v>

646
00:32:00.935 --> 00:32:05.018
No developments, I want to recommend a blog entry

647
00:32:07.028 --> 00:32:09.191
by a professor called Oren Kurr and he's written a couple

648
00:32:09.191 --> 00:32:11.052
of blog entries about this exact issue.

649
00:32:11.052 --> 00:32:14.153
He's one of the smartest people that write about

650
00:32:14.153 --> 00:32:18.210
these issues, but I think at least in part it has to

651
00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:21.101
do with whether, are you being forced to provide your

652
00:32:21.101 --> 00:32:25.407
fingerprint and do they know it's your phone already?

653
00:32:25.407 --> 00:32:29.574
For example, does the provision of your finger as sort

654
00:32:31.147 --> 00:32:33.789
of then lead to the conclusion that this is your phone

655
00:32:33.789 --> 00:32:36.717
and does that then incriminate you, I think that's an

656
00:32:36.717 --> 00:32:39.319
interesting whole pathway to explore in terms of why

657
00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:43.538
that would not be permitted, but on the flip side

658
00:32:43.538 --> 00:32:46.186
if you could take somebody's fingerprint why not just

659
00:32:46.186 --> 00:32:48.720
take their fingerprint to unlock the phone, I don't know.

660
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.485
At the end of they day though, I think the one thin about-

661
00:32:52.485 --> 00:32:56.376
and kind of relating this back to the prior social media

662
00:32:56.376 --> 00:33:00.543
question, the idea that we all sort of now use cloud

663
00:33:03.101 --> 00:33:05.597
technology one way or the other whether it's through

664
00:33:05.597 --> 00:33:08.448
social media or chat programs or just Dropbox whatever,

665
00:33:08.448 --> 00:33:11.630
it means that when you open somebody's phone up, you

666
00:33:11.630 --> 00:33:15.563
get access to an incredible amount of information.

667
00:33:15.563 --> 00:33:19.730
And the supreme court recently, I think it was 2014

668
00:33:22.183 --> 00:33:26.350
unless it was 2012, anyway in a case called Riley actually

669
00:33:27.802 --> 00:33:31.969
as part of dicta said you know, you open somebody's phone

670
00:33:32.879 --> 00:33:35.865
you're basically reaching across the whole globe

671
00:33:35.865 --> 00:33:39.312
and looking at data that basically is a reflection

672
00:33:39.312 --> 00:33:40.963
of their mind, right?

673
00:33:40.963 --> 00:33:42.698
So at least I think the supreme court at least part

674
00:33:42.698 --> 00:33:44.857
of the supreme court is starting to think about

675
00:33:44.857 --> 00:33:46.428
technology differently.

676
00:33:46.428 --> 00:33:49.932
And I think that all of us know I would hope that

677
00:33:49.932 --> 00:33:53.743
you know, somebody's phone is super private, it's got

678
00:33:53.743 --> 00:33:56.795
all these details and the details are not necessarily

679
00:33:56.795 --> 00:34:00.482
just on the phone they're all over the world and, yeah

680
00:34:00.482 --> 00:34:02.839
so hopefully that will then come out to play in terms

681
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:05.130
of how these cases shake out one way or the other.

682
00:34:05.130 --> 00:34:07.443
<v ->It's actually about fingerprinting, I would never use</v>

683
00:34:07.443 --> 00:34:10.701
a fingerprinting to unlock any of my devices because it's

684
00:34:10.701 --> 00:34:15.175
like it's pretty easy to get a fingerprint when you

685
00:34:15.175 --> 00:34:17.201
touch the phone to get it off of the phone.

686
00:34:17.201 --> 00:34:22.081
So basically it's like writing your password 50 times

687
00:34:22.081 --> 00:34:25.995
on your phone, it doesn't really make sense to me.

688
00:34:25.995 --> 00:34:27.916
But now my question is actually a little off topic

689
00:34:27.916 --> 00:34:30.805
but you mentioned Guantanamo and I would be interested

690
00:34:30.805 --> 00:34:34.622
in what's your assessment of Guantanamo as a whole,

691
00:34:34.622 --> 00:34:39.044
at the moment or back then when you were working there?

692
00:34:39.044 --> 00:34:43.211
<v ->It's a really depressing place with iguanas and jellyfish.</v>

693
00:34:44.224 --> 00:34:45.962
[laughter]

694
00:34:45.962 --> 00:34:48.975
It's iguanas and jellyfish signs all over the place,

695
00:34:48.975 --> 00:34:52.246
watch the iguanas, really like all over the place.

696
00:34:52.246 --> 00:34:53.610
<v Man>I meant the legal assessment.</v>

697
00:34:53.610 --> 00:34:58.136
<v ->Oh the legal assessment, so just today-I've never had</v>

698
00:34:58.136 --> 00:35:00.575
like an optimistic legal assessment about Guantanamo, which

699
00:35:00.575 --> 00:35:03.388
is-I mean my clients really liked me because on my first day

700
00:35:03.388 --> 00:35:05.862
I was like hey guys, I'm a really new lawyer, and

701
00:35:05.862 --> 00:35:08.716
I don't know much about habeas but that's not gonna

702
00:35:08.716 --> 00:35:11.116
help you guys out anyway, right?

703
00:35:11.116 --> 00:35:13.427
And they were like you're our guy, you're totally,

704
00:35:13.427 --> 00:35:15.538
we've been here for like x amount of years already, so

705
00:35:15.538 --> 00:35:16.871
we believe that.

706
00:35:18.885 --> 00:35:23.738
But so just today I think I skimmed an article about

707
00:35:23.738 --> 00:35:27.050
some lawmakers calling for Guantanamo to stay open

708
00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:31.217
for new terrorists, so that was not a very optimistic

709
00:35:33.573 --> 00:35:34.642
thing to read.

710
00:35:34.642 --> 00:35:38.496
And of course I think it would-I can't see that something

711
00:35:38.496 --> 00:35:42.900
like that not passing given our existing government

712
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:46.567
so yeah, definitely very pessimistic outlook

713
00:35:48.488 --> 00:35:51.250
at Guantanamo Bay, unless you're going there for the

714
00:35:51.250 --> 00:35:54.756
swimming in which case, there are jellyfish.

715
00:35:54.756 --> 00:35:57.165
And turkey vultures.

716
00:35:57.165 --> 00:36:01.248
<v ->Okay, other questions about legal issues or ...</v>

717
00:36:03.248 --> 00:36:04.369
[in unison] iguanas.

718
00:36:04.369 --> 00:36:07.062
<v ->Alright I had a silly, technical questions.</v>

719
00:36:07.062 --> 00:36:11.390
Earlier on we talked about border crossings and you said

720
00:36:11.390 --> 00:36:15.557
that-what I was wondering is, is it that a border search

721
00:36:18.286 --> 00:36:22.453
is reasonable or that a border search is unreasonable

722
00:36:23.473 --> 00:36:26.473
but the 4th amendment doesn't apply?

723
00:36:27.980 --> 00:36:29.510
And is there even an important distinction between

724
00:36:29.510 --> 00:36:30.546
those two things.

725
00:36:30.546 --> 00:36:31.538
<v ->No.</v>

726
00:36:31.538 --> 00:36:32.863
<v ->Okay yeah.</v>

727
00:36:32.863 --> 00:36:34.893
[laughter]

728
00:36:34.893 --> 00:36:36.837
<v ->I always thought that there was a border exception</v>

729
00:36:36.837 --> 00:36:40.727
to the 4th amendment, is that not right?

730
00:36:40.727 --> 00:36:43.791
<v ->Yeah, what's funny is I'm actually teaching this</v>

731
00:36:43.791 --> 00:36:47.958
right now, but so there's a sort of historical line

732
00:36:49.424 --> 00:36:52.637
of cases where there are all these exceptions for example

733
00:36:52.637 --> 00:36:55.038
the warrant requirement, if there's an exigency,

734
00:36:55.038 --> 00:36:58.771
you can enter a house because you believe that you

735
00:36:58.771 --> 00:37:00.849
will find evidence of a homicide, you just heard

736
00:37:00.849 --> 00:37:03.489
gunshots, et cetera and so there is an exception

737
00:37:03.489 --> 00:37:05.427
to the warrant requirement.

738
00:37:05.427 --> 00:37:09.835
Later cases might say well, the 4th amendment protects

739
00:37:09.835 --> 00:37:12.815
against unreasonable searches and seizures and searches

740
00:37:12.815 --> 00:37:16.125
and seizures are per se unreasonable unless there's a

741
00:37:16.125 --> 00:37:20.292
warrant, so which is it, it's like basically the same

742
00:37:22.236 --> 00:37:25.509
kind of circular logic that commands the 4th amendment

743
00:37:25.509 --> 00:37:29.676
makes people love to write about it so much, except for me.

744
00:37:31.184 --> 00:37:33.253
<v ->And apologies if this is straight out of a West Wing</v>

745
00:37:33.253 --> 00:37:38.049
episode, but could the third amendment be used to-

746
00:37:38.049 --> 00:37:39.536
<v ->Tell our friends what the third amendment is.</v>

747
00:37:39.536 --> 00:37:42.299
<v ->Right so the third amendment for those unfamiliar</v>

748
00:37:42.299 --> 00:37:44.993
says the British government doesn't have the right

749
00:37:44.993 --> 00:37:48.098
to quarter soldiers in your home, way back when that was

750
00:37:48.098 --> 00:37:52.234
a thing, but the idea would be that if drones following

751
00:37:52.234 --> 00:37:56.287
you around is basically a government or military presence

752
00:37:56.287 --> 00:38:00.165
in your life just as a solider in your home would also

753
00:38:00.165 --> 00:38:02.651
be you know something that's protected by the third

754
00:38:02.651 --> 00:38:05.877
amendment so, is there like any way-if a student wrote

755
00:38:05.877 --> 00:38:08.240
that on your exam, would that be good or very bad?

756
00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:11.840
<v ->But the drones follow you outside, if they follow you</v>

757
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:15.907
in your home it's definitely against the law.

758
00:38:15.907 --> 00:38:18.922
No, we make such arbitrary distinctions all the time, like

759
00:38:18.922 --> 00:38:22.228
if you attach a beeper to something that's fine,

760
00:38:22.228 --> 00:38:25.301
if it tracks somebody in places that we would ordinarily

761
00:38:25.301 --> 00:38:28.613
be able to track them without violating the law

762
00:38:28.613 --> 00:38:32.459
but if the beeper or tracking device actually lets you

763
00:38:32.459 --> 00:38:36.060
decipher where they are in their home, all of a sudden

764
00:38:36.060 --> 00:38:38.579
that's a 4th amendment violation, I mean I get why,

765
00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:42.547
but it's kind of also arbitrary to be honest

766
00:38:42.547 --> 00:38:43.631
at the end of the day.

767
00:38:43.631 --> 00:38:46.457
<v ->I just love the idea that like there's a part of</v>

768
00:38:46.457 --> 00:38:48.429
the constitution that was so devoted to that and from

769
00:38:48.429 --> 00:38:51.661
what I've understood there's no supreme court case law

770
00:38:51.661 --> 00:38:53.977
about the third amendment about quartering soldiers

771
00:38:53.977 --> 00:38:55.012
in your home.

772
00:38:55.012 --> 00:38:58.261
<v ->Yeah certainly none that I know of.</v>

773
00:38:58.261 --> 00:38:59.937
<v ->I mean I guess if we get to the point where we have</v>

774
00:38:59.937 --> 00:39:02.552
robots that are serving as soldiers, this could actually

775
00:39:02.552 --> 00:39:06.230
be something that we would argue in a court of law.

776
00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:09.008
<v ->Like if you have to let the robot charge at your house?</v>

777
00:39:09.008 --> 00:39:10.494
<v ->If you let Robocop in your house.</v>

778
00:39:10.494 --> 00:39:14.299
<v ->If you have to let-or if it's like little tiny gnats</v>

779
00:39:14.299 --> 00:39:18.466
that are serving as soldiers but they're really small

780
00:39:19.895 --> 00:39:21.753
so they're just kind of getting into your house?

781
00:39:21.753 --> 00:39:22.787
<v ->Like nanobots.</v>

782
00:39:22.787 --> 00:39:25.476
<v ->I guess that would still be surveillance though.</v>

783
00:39:25.476 --> 00:39:27.047
<v ->They would need a warrant absolutely.</v>

784
00:39:27.047 --> 00:39:29.194
<v Annalee>Yeah they would need a warrant to</v>

785
00:39:29.194 --> 00:39:30.603
send in the nanodrones.

786
00:39:30.603 --> 00:39:34.770
<v ->Unless the nanodrones only detect contraband, then</v>

787
00:39:35.959 --> 00:39:38.182
maybe you'd have an argument.

788
00:39:38.182 --> 00:39:39.216
<v Annalee>Really!?</v>

789
00:39:39.216 --> 00:39:40.215
<v ->Who knows, I don't know.</v>

790
00:39:40.215 --> 00:39:41.206
<v ->Even going into your house?</v>

791
00:39:41.206 --> 00:39:42.197
<v ->Well but let's wait for the case and see.</v>

792
00:39:42.197 --> 00:39:44.017
[laughter]

793
00:39:44.017 --> 00:39:48.184
But you know there is a case, it's not a home invasion

794
00:39:49.416 --> 00:39:53.583
but for instance a dog sniff that determines that there's

795
00:39:54.684 --> 00:39:58.017
contraband in your luggage, that's okay.

796
00:39:59.865 --> 00:40:04.032
A case called Jacobson said that if you do a search

797
00:40:06.479 --> 00:40:11.122
and somehow you only detect contraband or evidence

798
00:40:11.122 --> 00:40:14.789
of criminal activity, then that's also okay.

799
00:40:16.052 --> 00:40:18.412
<v ->Even if it's in your house-</v>

800
00:40:18.412 --> 00:40:20.154
<v ->No no it definitely did not go that far, but</v>

801
00:40:20.154 --> 00:40:22.885
that case has never been overturned and so that's

802
00:40:22.885 --> 00:40:25.277
kind of a creepy case.

803
00:40:25.277 --> 00:40:27.718
<v ->Yeah, 'cause you could conceivably be sniffing data</v>

804
00:40:27.718 --> 00:40:29.693
around someone's house.

805
00:40:29.693 --> 00:40:31.392
<v ->Yeah I think about it in the data mining context actually</v>

806
00:40:31.392 --> 00:40:33.750
so what if, you know we collect everybody's data

807
00:40:33.750 --> 00:40:37.954
and then we mine it and then no human ever looks at it

808
00:40:37.954 --> 00:40:40.213
and then it just generates sort of outcomes about people

809
00:40:40.213 --> 00:40:43.884
and that's all it does is just generate culpability

810
00:40:43.884 --> 00:40:46.911
outcomes, where is the search?

811
00:40:46.911 --> 00:40:48.810
Like was their data ever searched?

812
00:40:48.810 --> 00:40:50.963
And do you have any right to privacy?

813
00:40:50.963 --> 00:40:53.646
Over for instance, a database that doesn't include

814
00:40:53.646 --> 00:40:55.142
anything about you but was used to determine something

815
00:40:55.142 --> 00:40:58.247
about you, that's fairly accurate?

816
00:40:58.247 --> 00:40:59.239
<v ->What do you think?</v>

817
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:01.138
<v ->I don't think it's a 4th amendment issue, I think</v>

818
00:41:01.138 --> 00:41:02.906
it's a due process issue.

819
00:41:02.906 --> 00:41:05.185
And in fact I'm writing about it just now.

820
00:41:05.185 --> 00:41:09.536
We very much focus and concentrate on the issue of

821
00:41:09.536 --> 00:41:13.131
collecting data, that's sort of been a thing for a while

822
00:41:13.131 --> 00:41:16.031
but here we have situations where there might not be

823
00:41:16.031 --> 00:41:18.551
an expectation of privacy in your data like Twitter,

824
00:41:18.551 --> 00:41:21.824
for example and what if somebody just took all your

825
00:41:21.824 --> 00:41:25.511
Twitter data and all that of your friends and somehow

826
00:41:25.511 --> 00:41:27.665
mined all that and then came up with a conclusion about

827
00:41:27.665 --> 00:41:31.431
you and then used that to obtain a warrant for example.

828
00:41:31.431 --> 00:41:33.046
Would that work?

829
00:41:33.046 --> 00:41:34.747
<v ->Has it worked?</v>

830
00:41:34.747 --> 00:41:38.024
<v ->I don't think that the 4th amendment would prevent that.</v>

831
00:41:38.024 --> 00:41:40.046
<v ->Right, 'cause technically you're saying it in public,</v>

832
00:41:40.046 --> 00:41:41.943
right because you've said it on Twitter?

833
00:41:41.943 --> 00:41:44.386
<v ->Technically you don't have an expectation of privacy</v>

834
00:41:44.386 --> 00:41:47.204
over a public message on Twitter, right, 'cause I mean.

835
00:41:47.204 --> 00:41:50.100
So interesting stuff, and by the way cops are using that

836
00:41:50.100 --> 00:41:52.336
kind of stuff, right?

837
00:41:52.336 --> 00:41:56.841
I think Fresno has the thing called ... it's got all

838
00:41:56.841 --> 00:41:59.508
these weird names like Be Alert.

839
00:42:01.474 --> 00:42:03.250
No no really, it's like Be Alert-

840
00:42:03.250 --> 00:42:04.280
<v ->No, I believe you.</v>

841
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:05.280
<v ->Or, pr ...</v>

842
00:42:07.421 --> 00:42:08.417
<v ->Pretzel?</v>

843
00:42:08.417 --> 00:42:10.190
<v ->Pred-pole, that just sounds awful.</v>

844
00:42:10.190 --> 00:42:11.634
<v ->It does.</v>

845
00:42:11.634 --> 00:42:14.196
<v ->Yeah, and so Pred-Pole actually advertises that</v>

846
00:42:14.196 --> 00:42:17.352
they can tell you why certain outcomes come up because

847
00:42:17.352 --> 00:42:21.800
they anticipate that being a challenge in court.

848
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:24.739
<v ->Right and I would imagine that if not now,</v>

849
00:42:24.739 --> 00:42:26.679
in the very near future that people who are coming into

850
00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.117
the country for example could conceivably have algorithms

851
00:42:30.117 --> 00:42:32.600
run on their social media presences or on their speech

852
00:42:32.600 --> 00:42:34.712
that they put on the internet or other kinds of things

853
00:42:34.712 --> 00:42:36.783
that has been data mining collected.

854
00:42:36.783 --> 00:42:41.372
<v ->Yeah I think, so for instance I think Facebook already</v>

855
00:42:41.372 --> 00:42:45.539
has bots that try to detect folks that are-like a bot

856
00:42:47.167 --> 00:42:50.022
that pretend it's a 14 year old and tries to get bad

857
00:42:50.022 --> 00:42:53.088
people that are trying to talk to 14 year olds for example

858
00:42:53.088 --> 00:42:57.255
and I wonder if the federal government knows about

859
00:42:58.335 --> 00:43:02.306
stuff like that, why not just compel social media

860
00:43:02.306 --> 00:43:05.902
companies to mine their own user base and then kind

861
00:43:05.902 --> 00:43:08.927
of generate outcomes based on that.

862
00:43:08.927 --> 00:43:11.903
<v ->Generate outcomes or generate profiles of people?</v>

863
00:43:11.903 --> 00:43:14.679
These are people who might commit a crime based on their-

864
00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.577
<v ->Well just get me everybody who's depressed and brown.</v>

865
00:43:17.577 --> 00:43:19.815
Like actually just get me everybody that's depressed

866
00:43:19.815 --> 00:43:20.803
and brown, how about that?

867
00:43:20.803 --> 00:43:23.777
Or like everybody that's depressed and has a name like-

868
00:43:23.777 --> 00:43:24.774
<v ->Ahmed.</v>

869
00:43:24.774 --> 00:43:25.807
<v ->Exactly.</v>

870
00:43:25.807 --> 00:43:26.801
[laughter]

871
00:43:26.801 --> 00:43:28.167
<v ->Well actually I was gonna say Facebook had this program</v>

872
00:43:28.167 --> 00:43:30.496
and I don't know if it's still going which was to try

873
00:43:30.496 --> 00:43:33.513
to figure out if people were suicidal and to send

874
00:43:33.513 --> 00:43:36.824
and intervention which I think is a very lovely idea,

875
00:43:36.824 --> 00:43:38.890
in many ways but could in fact lead to this exact

876
00:43:38.890 --> 00:43:40.003
kind of profiling.

877
00:43:40.003 --> 00:43:40.997
<v ->That's what I would think of if I was-</v>

878
00:43:40.997 --> 00:43:44.155
<v ->Who is a suicidal Ahmed, let's try to bring 'em all in.</v>

879
00:43:44.155 --> 00:43:46.540
<v ->That's where we draw the line.</v>

880
00:43:46.540 --> 00:43:48.930
Suicidal Ahmed, probable cause.

881
00:43:48.930 --> 00:43:51.039
[laughter]

882
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:52.277
<v ->Well from what you're saying that actually could become</v>

883
00:43:52.277 --> 00:43:54.142
a warrant essentially.

884
00:43:54.142 --> 00:43:56.455
I mean, they wouldn't write down like brown person

885
00:43:56.455 --> 00:43:59.426
who's depressed but that would actually trigger-

886
00:43:59.426 --> 00:44:03.968
<v ->Sure why not, I mean, I don't entirely see why not-</v>

887
00:44:03.968 --> 00:44:05.655
<v ->It seems illegal to me that's why not.</v>

888
00:44:05.655 --> 00:44:07.766
<v ->Not because I'm a bad person that is supporting</v>

889
00:44:07.766 --> 00:44:10.741
these ideas, but like, you know if they're doing it

890
00:44:10.741 --> 00:44:14.845
anyway, if they're mining your data, why not just

891
00:44:14.845 --> 00:44:15.961
compel them to do it.

892
00:44:15.961 --> 00:44:18.817
I dunno, I mean it's just an idea.

893
00:44:18.817 --> 00:44:21.668
I would of course challenge it in court.

894
00:44:21.668 --> 00:44:23.365
<v ->Yeah 'cause I was gonna say it sounds illegal.</v>

895
00:44:23.365 --> 00:44:24.448
<v ->Why though?</v>

896
00:44:26.255 --> 00:44:30.422
<v ->It seems like that generating a profile of someone</v>

897
00:44:31.507 --> 00:44:36.462
based on racial characteristics or a psychological like

898
00:44:36.462 --> 00:44:39.196
some kind of mental illness would be discriminatory in

899
00:44:39.196 --> 00:44:41.180
some way, it seems like that.

900
00:44:41.180 --> 00:44:42.013
<v ->Yeah.</v>

901
00:44:44.044 --> 00:44:45.111
<v ->Especially when it's before they've</v>

902
00:44:45.111 --> 00:44:46.185
actually done something.

903
00:44:46.185 --> 00:44:47.175
<v ->I know, right?</v>

904
00:44:47.175 --> 00:44:49.245
Well they're depressed and brown, isn't that enough?

905
00:44:49.245 --> 00:44:52.754
<v ->I mean it does sound suspicious.</v>

906
00:44:52.754 --> 00:44:53.587
<v ->Right?</v>

907
00:44:56.002 --> 00:44:59.908
And what if depressed brown and with a hipster beard?

908
00:44:59.908 --> 00:45:02.928
So there's a whole thing about Facebook and hipster beards

909
00:45:02.928 --> 00:45:06.110
for instance, I could not have a hipster beard on Facebook

910
00:45:06.110 --> 00:45:09.712
if they were basically analyzing photos.

911
00:45:09.712 --> 00:45:11.440
<v ->Your beard is legit, it's not a hipster beard.</v>

912
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:13.962
<v ->No this is actually, actually if I were traveling</v>

913
00:45:13.962 --> 00:45:15.812
today I would not look like this just to

914
00:45:15.812 --> 00:45:17.300
be completely honest.

915
00:45:17.300 --> 00:45:18.622
<v ->What does that mean?</v>

916
00:45:18.622 --> 00:45:21.317
<v ->I mean, you know I'm very conscious that I'm a dude</v>

917
00:45:21.317 --> 00:45:23.663
named Ahmed who's brown and has a beard.

918
00:45:23.663 --> 00:45:27.830
And I'm very conscious of that and so you know you can-

919
00:45:30.189 --> 00:45:32.336
I would definitely shave my head, you've seen me,

920
00:45:32.336 --> 00:45:35.225
I would shave my head, shave my beard and even

921
00:45:35.225 --> 00:45:36.225
wear a suit.

922
00:45:38.156 --> 00:45:41.544
Just to all the Somali-Americans out there.

923
00:45:41.544 --> 00:45:42.910
And the good thing is that once you get to your

924
00:45:42.910 --> 00:45:46.464
destination, the suit doesn't need to be re-ironed usually.

925
00:45:46.464 --> 00:45:48.740
Because if you were to pack your suit in a piece of

926
00:45:48.740 --> 00:45:50.803
luggage you would need to re-iron it before wearing

927
00:45:50.803 --> 00:45:52.416
it again but if you just wear it, you get protection

928
00:45:52.416 --> 00:45:55.166
and relatively wrinkle free suit.

929
00:45:57.179 --> 00:45:58.704
<v ->Unless you're detained for 18 hours.</v>

930
00:45:58.704 --> 00:45:59.932
<v ->Exactly.</v>

931
00:45:59.932 --> 00:46:00.968
<v ->Then it gets a little wrinkly.</v>

932
00:46:00.968 --> 00:46:03.737
<v ->But they do have a steam room.</v>

933
00:46:03.737 --> 00:46:05.987
[laughter]

934
00:46:07.121 --> 00:46:08.445
<v ->This has been really informative.</v>

935
00:46:08.445 --> 00:46:10.719
[laughter]

936
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:13.119
Does anybody else have any final questions.

937
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:15.525
<v ->So talking more about the technology in the home,</v>

938
00:46:15.525 --> 00:46:18.087
like little nanobots, so wasn't there a case about

939
00:46:18.087 --> 00:46:22.758
the government trying to get into an Alexa around a murder?

940
00:46:22.758 --> 00:46:24.986
So where does that fall under all of this under these

941
00:46:24.986 --> 00:46:27.303
amendment laws and everything?

942
00:46:27.303 --> 00:46:30.246
<v ->Yeah I think in that case there was a murder of</v>

943
00:46:30.246 --> 00:46:34.038
was it like Super Bowl Weekend or the weekend right

944
00:46:34.038 --> 00:46:38.245
before that, and then the government was-it was a state

945
00:46:38.245 --> 00:46:41.344
case I think-they were trying to get the recording,

946
00:46:41.344 --> 00:46:45.511
basically the words that anybody said to Alexa which

947
00:46:47.011 --> 00:46:51.681
is this Amazon tool, that basically got sent up

948
00:46:51.681 --> 00:46:53.832
to the cloud and were processed, right?

949
00:46:53.832 --> 00:46:57.586
So and I think the issue in that case is that you're

950
00:46:57.586 --> 00:47:00.681
supposed to say hey Alexa or something so there's

951
00:47:00.681 --> 00:47:03.361
some sort of debate of whether Alexa got any of the

952
00:47:03.361 --> 00:47:06.587
words at all, but I think a more interesting spin on that

953
00:47:06.587 --> 00:47:10.670
is what if you say, so I'm your lawyer let's say.

954
00:47:11.629 --> 00:47:14.407
And you've got Alexa and it's on, it's definitely

955
00:47:14.407 --> 00:47:17.824
sending stuff up and I say I'll bill you.

956
00:47:18.666 --> 00:47:20.903
But it takes down I'll kill you.

957
00:47:20.903 --> 00:47:24.001
And then somebody does all that crazy stuff to you

958
00:47:24.001 --> 00:47:26.369
but I'm like in my office but then I get arrested

959
00:47:26.369 --> 00:47:29.584
and they get Alexa to hand over the text and Alexa's

960
00:47:29.584 --> 00:47:33.816
like he said I'll kill you, right because it's AI

961
00:47:33.816 --> 00:47:35.763
processed that shit wrong.

962
00:47:35.763 --> 00:47:38.121
I'm in trouble now, right?

963
00:47:38.121 --> 00:47:39.196
You're dead.

964
00:47:39.196 --> 00:47:40.929
[laughter]

965
00:47:40.929 --> 00:47:43.712
and there's you know there's disputable evidence

966
00:47:43.712 --> 00:47:47.275
against me, which how would you dispute, how would one

967
00:47:47.275 --> 00:47:50.783
dispute that, I think that's a really interesting issue

968
00:47:50.783 --> 00:47:52.684
because then you'd have to say you know, this thing

969
00:47:52.684 --> 00:47:54.503
doesn't work like it's advertised.

970
00:47:54.503 --> 00:47:56.284
It's just a thought.

971
00:47:56.284 --> 00:47:59.799
<v ->Yeah especially because voice recognition is really</v>

972
00:47:59.799 --> 00:48:02.272
terrible for people who have accents, so you'd immediately

973
00:48:02.272 --> 00:48:05.205
have extra problems if you didn't have like the sort of

974
00:48:05.205 --> 00:48:06.955
you know, NPR accent.

975
00:48:08.263 --> 00:48:11.110
<v ->For instance, exactly right, like try to keep it</v>

976
00:48:11.110 --> 00:48:12.318
NPR as much as possible.

977
00:48:12.318 --> 00:48:14.712
<v ->Yeah, that's the American BBC accent.</v>

978
00:48:14.712 --> 00:48:17.778
Anyway thank you guys very much for joining us.

979
00:48:17.778 --> 00:48:20.028
[applause]