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Hello everybody.
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This is quite an honor
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to get to be on stage here with Roger.
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Roger as many of you know
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is a legendary Silicon Valley investor.
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He's in the game for 35 years.
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Saw many of the most important deals
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in Silicon Valley history take place.
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Early mentor to Mark Zuckerberg.
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And as some of you probably know from the title
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of his most recent book he has turned into something
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of a critic of Facebook.
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An extremely articulate, smart, helpful critic.
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He also played a lead role in a cover story I wrote
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with Fred Vogelstein for Wired last year.
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Tracing the evolution of Facebook.
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So we have a man who's been on the inside
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of Silicon Valley who's invested
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in some of the biggest companies.
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Who's now become one of the most influential critics
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and this is the perfect perfect time.
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Not just the perfect month.
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But the perfect week to be on stage with Roger McNamee.
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In fact the perfect day.
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So hello Roger.
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Nick it's a pleasure.
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I also want to use some housekeeping.
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We will be taking questions from the audience through Slido.
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You've probably have seen how this works
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but you can go on and you can type in your questions.
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They will pop on a screen.
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I will then ask Roger.
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All right let's do this.
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By the way this is the book.
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You all should get it.
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It's very good.
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All right.
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Roger.
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I want this to be a forward looking conversation mostly.
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People have read the book.
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They're familiar with this.
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But I wanna ask one backwards looking question
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'cause I think it's important.
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So about 10 years ago you meet Zuckerberg.
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You give him very helpful advice
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saying don't sell out to Yahoo!.
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Lord knows what would've happened if he had.
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You become a mentor.
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During those early years did you view Facebook
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as a cool company that had done something brilliant?
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Smart founder?
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Or did you actually view it in the idealistic way.
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That this is the company that will connect the world
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and do something wonderful for humanity?
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How much of it was exciting new thing
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and how much of it was different?
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When I first met Mark he was 22.
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The company was two years old.
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It was still limited to college and high school students
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with an email account from their school.
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There was no news feed yet and the day we met
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I'd been in the investment business for 24 years.
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I'd been blessed to get there before the PC industry.
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So as Nick said I'd seen a lot of things
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and I was asked to take a meeting without knowing the topic.
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And yet when Mark came to see me I already was convinced
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that Facebook was the next big thing.
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That he had broken the code.
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The thing that had killed every attempt at social apps
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before that whether it was AOL or The WELL.
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Whether it was Friendster or MySpace.
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Essentially the ability
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to be anonymous allowed trolls to take over.
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I was convinced that Mark's requirement
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of authenticated identity was literally the Holy Grail.
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It was the thing that was gonna unlock this opportunity.
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And the fact that he gave you real control
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of privacy was a big deal.
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But unlock a financial opportunity
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or unlock a moral opportunity?
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Well from my perspective
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there was no investment opportunity.
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So when I first met him I was going into a meeting
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to give advice to a young man.
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So I viewed this as
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what we had learned was connecting people
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on big networks always devolved
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into sort of trolldom.
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And I was convinced he had the way to fix that.
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So there was a distinct idealism to it
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and because there was no investment opportunity
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I was there because I wanted to meet
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the young guy who'd figured this thing out.
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So he'd figured out how to make a big network work
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and you as someone who had been in Silicon Valley
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as everybody tried to crack the idea
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of a big network that would actually make
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the world a better place.
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You supported this as a cause in some ways.
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Well don't give me too much credit.
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I looked at this as you know
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technology for 50 years before that point
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had produced nothing but positive outcomes for society.
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So I didn't even have it in my head
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that a thing like Facebook could go bad.
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So the idealism that was there was something
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that everyone in my generation would've had
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dating back to the fifties.
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And you know when I looked at Mark
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I was looking at a guy.
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They were 20 years old when they figured out
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that you could apply graph theory to a network design.
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I mean that was like such a genius insight.
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Again I was just meeting with a young guy.
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The question was could I help him out?
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I didn't have to have like a massive moral view.
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But whatever one I had was this pure idealism
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I had about tech.
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I was a technology optimist like everybody else.
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Okay well let's dig into that right.
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I'm the editor of a magazine
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which used to have the model change is good.
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And now we run a few critical stories from time to time.
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How do you?
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No not you.
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How do you look back at that period of optimism?
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Do you say it was the right attitude for the time
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and the times are different?
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Do you say damn what was I thinking?
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I look at it as I give myself a break on 2006.
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Because in 2006 again we were
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in the early days of web 2.0.
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Of this notion that we were going
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to replace the web of pages with a web of people.
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And I had not tipped to Google's strategy
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of taking what they called the digital exhaust
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of search queries and of email and of maps.
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And applying it to behavioral prediction.
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I was not.
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I mean I consider that a major failure
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of analysis on my part.
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But I did not know about that then.
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So maybe I was stupid but I don't look at this as somehow,
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I look at this like there were things
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I might have known then that I did not know
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that I wish I'd known now.
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But you give yourself a break not just on 2006
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but on like 1982 to 2006.
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Well I look at '82 to 2006 as a period where anything
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that wasn't helpful to humanity died very quickly.
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And so again you didn't need
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to have a deep moral thing
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because everybody had a moral sense.
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The notion that technology can improve people's lives
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was so deeply baked in to everybody.
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And the change that took place in 2004.
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Really 2003.
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Was that the PayPal Mafia had these two genius insights.
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The first was the Web 2.0 one about going
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to an internet of people.
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I mean that was so brilliant it's hard to overstate.
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And then secondly the idea that all
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of the limits of technology.
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Processing power, storage, memory,
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bandwidth were disappearing.
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And that you could build things at a global scale
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and therefore the notion of blitz scaling
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became a core thing.
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These guys had that insight in front of literally everyone.
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And I think all of that would have worked out perfectly
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if their value system had been more humanitarian
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and more humanistic than it was.
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I think that the value system they brought to it
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which of course they're entitled to.
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But it had this notion that none of us
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is responsible for the consequences of the disruptions
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that we create and that was incredibly convenient
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for doing a startup.
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But at large volumes it created risk.
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I don't wanna spend too much time in the past
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but let me ask about that.
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So you just described it as though
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the founders of these companies brought
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a value system into Silicon Valley.
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Not that Silicon Valley ineluctably created
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this value system for all the money that was flowing in.
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No they brought it in.
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I believe.
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So different people different companies go
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into the same ecosystem different results?
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Would've had different results yes.
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But I don't think you'd have had the same ecosystem.
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You needed the genius of the PayPal Mafia.
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These guys were simply operating at a different level.
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Without them I don't think we see what we wound up getting.
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The Google guys were outside that
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but they were already on this notion
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of it was okay to essentially track people everywhere
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and to send cars in and photograph your house
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with you in front of it.
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Like that was okay and to take pictures
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of your house from the top.
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And to gather all this data whether it was
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your credit card information or your health date
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if they could get it or everywhere you went on the web.
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They all felt like they could take that
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and that was okay.
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I don't think in prior generations of Silicon Valley
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people would've thought that way.
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Right so it's the combination
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of infinite power being created by the computers plus
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a value system that you don't think is the right one
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which then leads to what you see and you observe very well.
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At small scale I think it was fine right?
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It was when it got to global scale
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then the problems became obvious.
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To me the other real sign of the genius
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of these people was how big the businesses got
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before the problems really showed up.
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I mean the notion that you got
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to several active billion users before it was apparent
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that there was something wrong with the model?
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I mean seriously these people are brilliant
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and I have enormous admiration for what they created.
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I just wish we could've created it without some
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of the business model characteristics
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that are causing the harm.
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All right great.
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Well let's jump ahead now from 2008, 2009.
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To all the way up to 2019.
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So what happens in the intervening period.
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You were one of the first people
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to observe Russian activity on the platform.
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You see it in the Bernie Sanders campaign.
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You bring it to Zuckerberg and Sandberg.
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Kind of get brushed off.
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You have some conversations with Dan Rose.
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You turn more and more into a critic.
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And you become a critic at a time
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where the world becomes critical
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and you become one of the leading spokesman.
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And so all of this is going on
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and so in the last year Facebook makes a lotta changes.
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They put hundreds of people building AI systems
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to knock out toxic content.
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They make it much easier for you
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to adjust your privacy settings.
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They just do a really interesting thing
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where they change the KPIs of their employees
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so they're rewarded not on company growth
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but on company success at median values.
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Do you think the stuff that Facebook has rolled out
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in the last year is good?
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I don't think it's been effective.
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And I'll give you an example.
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Facebook created a database of political advertisements.
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In principle that's a really good idea.
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But what you'd really like to have
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is lots of independent people to verify
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what's going on inside that database.
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One of the most visible active players there was ProPublica.
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And Facebook wound up banning ProPublica from the database.
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The sad thing about this is that Facebook
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has historically behaved as though it was okay
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to apologize and then just go back
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to doing what you were doing before.
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And the longest time nobody was watching closely enough
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or could see well enough to see that's what was going on.
269
00:10:54.700 --> 00:10:56.680
But now that people are watching closely
270
00:10:56.680 --> 00:10:59.830
I think that game plan doesn't work the way it did
271
00:10:59.830 --> 00:11:01.668
for the first 15 years of the company
272
00:11:01.668 --> 00:11:04.530
and so I'm candidly very disappointed
273
00:11:04.530 --> 00:11:07.050
because to my mind anybody could've had
274
00:11:07.050 --> 00:11:10.080
the problems that occurred through 2016.
275
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:11.270
We all make mistakes.
276
00:11:11.270 --> 00:11:14.140
The scale they operate at makes the damage
277
00:11:14.140 --> 00:11:15.870
of their mistakes greater.
278
00:11:15.870 --> 00:11:18.850
But the notion I mean who among us was expecting
279
00:11:18.850 --> 00:11:21.350
the Russians to try to interfere in our elections?
280
00:11:21.350 --> 00:11:24.020
I mean our intelligence agencies didn't see it
281
00:11:24.020 --> 00:11:26.460
until it was too late and you know I don't know why
282
00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:27.560
we were expecting them to see it.
283
00:11:27.560 --> 00:11:30.878
So I give them a pass to a large extend on 2016.
284
00:11:30.878 --> 00:11:34.440
Where I have the problem is that once the evidence was out.
285
00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:36.770
The continued obfuscation.
286
00:11:36.770 --> 00:11:37.650
The deny,
287
00:11:37.650 --> 00:11:38.758
deflect,
288
00:11:38.758 --> 00:11:40.250
dissemble.
289
00:11:40.250 --> 00:11:41.840
That whole thing doesn't work for me
290
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:43.690
and I think it's gonna harm them
291
00:11:43.690 --> 00:11:46.740
because this was a problem that went I went to them
292
00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:49.310
I'm saying look you're in a trust business.
293
00:11:49.310 --> 00:11:51.420
The thing you can't do is hide behind
294
00:11:51.420 --> 00:11:55.112
a law that says you're a platform not a media company.
295
00:11:55.112 --> 00:11:59.740
In a trust business once people lose trust you're screwed.
296
00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:02.400
And you can see this now in the Nielsen numbers.
297
00:12:02.400 --> 00:12:05.064
They're down what is it 20% from the high
298
00:12:05.064 --> 00:12:07.040
in terms of usage?
299
00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:09.230
And whatever the number is it's enough
300
00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:12.000
to be alarming and you can see from their behavior
301
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:13.130
that they're alarmed by it.
302
00:12:13.130 --> 00:12:15.100
It's 15% on the core blue app
303
00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:17.280
if you combine Instagram and WhatsApp.
304
00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:18.113
It's still doing well.
305
00:12:18.113 --> 00:12:19.300
Let me ask the first question from the audience.
306
00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:20.440
Do you still have a Facebook account?
307
00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.105
I do and not only do I have it I've written a book
308
00:12:22.105 --> 00:12:25.026
which Nick has here.
309
00:12:25.026 --> 00:12:26.960
And if you want to promote a book
310
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.210
for people who are on Facebook and Instagram.
311
00:12:30.690 --> 00:12:32.320
I got a really good piece of advice.
312
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.750
You wanna advertise on Facebook on Instagram.
313
00:12:34.750 --> 00:12:37.510
So the thing that people.
314
00:12:37.510 --> 00:12:38.343
Right?
315
00:12:38.343 --> 00:12:39.176
Duh.
316
00:12:39.176 --> 00:12:40.545
So the thing.
317
00:12:40.545 --> 00:12:43.020
[audience clapping]
318
00:12:43.020 --> 00:12:43.853
Get this.
319
00:12:43.853 --> 00:12:46.510
I still own my position in Facebook
320
00:12:46.510 --> 00:12:48.970
because I didn't want anybody to think
321
00:12:48.970 --> 00:12:52.250
that I was trashing a stock that I had sold.
322
00:12:52.250 --> 00:12:54.350
And so I held my position on the theory
323
00:12:54.350 --> 00:12:58.010
that if the stock went down look I've profited from it.
324
00:12:58.010 --> 00:12:59.900
And so if the stock went down I felt
325
00:13:00.984 --> 00:13:02.083
it was appropriate for me to take a hit.
326
00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:04.910
That's just my personal value system.
327
00:13:04.910 --> 00:13:07.760
I don't ask any of you to behave that way.
328
00:13:07.760 --> 00:13:08.830
The thing that I've discovered
329
00:13:08.830 --> 00:13:12.240
is I'm not the perfect messenger for this message.
330
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.410
Obviously for Zuck and Sheryl and Dan Rose
331
00:13:14.410 --> 00:13:16.252
I was the wrong guy.
332
00:13:16.252 --> 00:13:19.350
To this day I remain the wrong guy for Facebook.
333
00:13:19.350 --> 00:13:22.460
What I ask people to do is just think about the message
334
00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:25.810
and understand that this isn't really about Facebook.
335
00:13:25.810 --> 00:13:27.240
It started for me there
336
00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.280
because that was the company I knew best
337
00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:33.260
and it's where I saw the symptoms first in January of 2016.
338
00:13:33.260 --> 00:13:36.980
But this is a problem that is endemic in a world
339
00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:41.980
where the business model is about tracking human beings.
340
00:13:42.410 --> 00:13:45.610
Claiming eminent domain on their personal data.
341
00:13:45.610 --> 00:13:49.560
Using it for behavioral prediction.
342
00:13:49.560 --> 00:13:53.070
And then using the tools of machine learning,
343
00:13:53.070 --> 00:13:54.370
artificial intelligence,
344
00:13:54.370 --> 00:13:58.120
and AI to steer people towards outcomes
345
00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.180
that makes those predictions more valuable.
346
00:14:00.180 --> 00:14:03.770
And I'm saying you know to me maybe the world's gonna like
347
00:14:03.770 --> 00:14:05.910
that idea but they haven't had a chance
348
00:14:05.910 --> 00:14:07.310
to actually deliberate it.
349
00:14:07.310 --> 00:14:10.060
We really haven't had a chance to have the conversation
350
00:14:10.060 --> 00:14:15.060
about is it legitimate for companies to claim ownership
351
00:14:15.329 --> 00:14:20.329
and trade in our private financial transactions data?
352
00:14:20.690 --> 00:14:24.260
Or the health and wellness data that we put into apps
353
00:14:24.260 --> 00:14:26.540
that we're using to try to improve our lives?
354
00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:29.730
Or our location as tracked by cell companies?
355
00:14:29.730 --> 00:14:32.840
Or what we do on the web is tracked by anybody?
356
00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:34.860
That maybe fine.
357
00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:39.030
But all of that business model developed without,
358
00:14:39.030 --> 00:14:42.070
it developed behind a curtain.
359
00:14:42.070 --> 00:14:44.070
We didn't know that's what was going on.
360
00:14:46.468 --> 00:14:47.450
I think there's a lot of history
361
00:14:47.450 --> 00:14:49.720
that says that's a model we don't want.
362
00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.010
We don't want behavioral modification
363
00:14:52.010 --> 00:14:54.810
by corporations to be a big part of our lives.
364
00:14:54.810 --> 00:14:57.560
Let's go back to the very beginning of your answer.
365
00:14:57.560 --> 00:14:58.810
Do you use custom audiences
366
00:14:58.810 --> 00:15:00.490
on Facebook when you're promoting your book?
367
00:15:00.490 --> 00:15:03.205
Like when you buy Facebook ads to get people to buy Zucked
368
00:15:03.205 --> 00:15:04.750
how are you targeting?
369
00:15:04.750 --> 00:15:07.060
What information is most effective for you?
370
00:15:07.060 --> 00:15:08.228
It's really simple.
371
00:15:08.228 --> 00:15:10.940
So the answer to your question is yes.
372
00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:13.070
We put up a whole bunch of things
373
00:15:13.070 --> 00:15:15.530
of me talking about what I thought the issues were.
374
00:15:15.530 --> 00:15:17.570
And if people responded to the issues
375
00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:20.110
we targeted them.
376
00:15:20.110 --> 00:15:23.140
Uh huh so you are using Facebook ads
377
00:15:23.140 --> 00:15:26.340
to target book sales to Facebook critics?
378
00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:29.050
No to Facebook users
379
00:15:29.050 --> 00:15:31.022
who I hope will become Facebook critics.
380
00:15:31.022 --> 00:15:31.874
[laughing]
381
00:15:31.874 --> 00:15:32.849
No to be clear.
382
00:15:32.849 --> 00:15:33.682
This is called guerrilla warfare.
383
00:15:33.682 --> 00:15:34.800
Right I mean hey and just a sec.
384
00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:36.150
I am one person.
385
00:15:36.150 --> 00:15:38.500
I am up against a company with tens of billions
386
00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:40.940
of dollars of annual profit.
387
00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:44.362
I tried for three months to persuade them privately
388
00:15:44.362 --> 00:15:46.450
that there was a real problem here.
389
00:15:46.450 --> 00:15:47.960
Back when the cost of solving it
390
00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:49.460
would've been next to nothing.
391
00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:55.840
And my point to you here is this isn't about you know.
392
00:15:56.220 --> 00:15:58.380
This is a business model.
393
00:15:58.380 --> 00:16:03.380
And if my using their tools exposes the flaw in all of this
394
00:16:03.560 --> 00:16:05.780
then God bless right?
395
00:16:05.780 --> 00:16:07.860
My point is this is not personal between me
396
00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:08.720
and any of these people.
397
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.910
I have such respect for Mark and Sheryl
398
00:16:10.910 --> 00:16:12.500
and all the other people at Facebook.
399
00:16:12.500 --> 00:16:14.390
What they've accomplished is amazing.
400
00:16:14.390 --> 00:16:15.730
And on their own terms it's one
401
00:16:15.730 --> 00:16:18.640
of the greatest business models ever executed.
402
00:16:18.640 --> 00:16:20.100
And yet.
403
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:22.950
And yet the terms under which they executed
404
00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:24.990
are hostile to each and every one of us.
405
00:16:24.990 --> 00:16:26.920
Even if we're profiting from some other part
406
00:16:26.920 --> 00:16:27.900
of the business.
407
00:16:27.900 --> 00:16:30.370
And I look at this and I go again people may choose
408
00:16:30.370 --> 00:16:32.660
to disagree with me and that's fine.
409
00:16:32.660 --> 00:16:35.770
But I do think we have to have the conversation.
410
00:16:35.770 --> 00:16:38.770
[audience clapping]
411
00:16:43.709 --> 00:16:44.542
And I'm not calling you a hypocrite
412
00:16:44.542 --> 00:16:46.110
for buying Facebook ads 'cause I buy them too.
413
00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:47.520
How do you think we target Wired subscribers?
414
00:16:47.520 --> 00:16:50.280
In fact I got briefly banned because I bought
415
00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:52.110
an add for Nicholas Thompson's Facebook page
416
00:16:52.110 --> 00:16:53.430
and I put a Wired story that had a picture
417
00:16:53.430 --> 00:16:55.610
of Robert Mueller that they classified as political.
418
00:16:55.610 --> 00:16:56.443
Anyway.
419
00:16:56.443 --> 00:16:58.530
And to be clear we've had moments
420
00:16:58.530 --> 00:17:02.220
where they shall we say took exception.
421
00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:05.327
I tried to promote the Time magazine cover story
422
00:17:05.327 --> 00:17:09.110
and it took a few days for them to get passed the notion
423
00:17:09.110 --> 00:17:11.943
of me promoting a cover story about the book.
424
00:17:12.925 --> 00:17:15.770
And all it said was thank you Time magazine.
425
00:17:15.770 --> 00:17:17.040
It got shut down a few times.
426
00:17:17.040 --> 00:17:19.020
The account got shut down after I'd spent a pile
427
00:17:19.020 --> 00:17:20.890
of money building the custom audience.
428
00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:23.860
And then somebody thought about it
429
00:17:23.860 --> 00:17:24.693
and realized you know what?
430
00:17:24.693 --> 00:17:26.260
We really need to let this go forward.
431
00:17:26.260 --> 00:17:29.840
I have enormous for the people that made that decision.
432
00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:32.020
Again I think these are really good people.
433
00:17:32.020 --> 00:17:33.900
I just think nobody's ever told 'em
434
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.162
where the edges ought to be.
435
00:17:36.162 --> 00:17:37.453
I wanna help do that.
436
00:17:37.453 --> 00:17:38.286
Let's talk about where they think the edges are now
437
00:17:38.286 --> 00:17:39.200
'cause I think one of the most interesting things
438
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.460
that Facebook has done in the last two years.
439
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:42.720
Certainly in its time of troubles
440
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:44.640
is Mark Zuckerberg's statement
441
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:46.610
that he put out earlier this week.
442
00:17:46.610 --> 00:17:48.290
He said look we're gonna focus on privacy
443
00:17:48.290 --> 00:17:49.370
and we've seen that the future
444
00:17:49.370 --> 00:17:51.350
is end to end encrypted messaging.
445
00:17:51.350 --> 00:17:53.500
We're not sure what our business model will be around that
446
00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:55.270
but we are going to move into a new world
447
00:17:55.270 --> 00:17:56.590
and to design a new platform
448
00:17:56.590 --> 00:17:59.070
that takes privacy much more seriously.
449
00:17:59.070 --> 00:18:00.470
Also we are not gonna put servers
450
00:18:00.470 --> 00:18:01.480
in authoritarian countries.
451
00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:03.500
What did you think about his statement?
452
00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:05.850
So I started with the we're not gonna put servers
453
00:18:05.850 --> 00:18:08.850
in authoritarian piece and if they follow through
454
00:18:08.850 --> 00:18:11.710
on that I'm gonna be first in line to praise them.
455
00:18:11.710 --> 00:18:14.157
That is such a cool thing to do okay?
456
00:18:14.157 --> 00:18:16.660
'Cause it means they're giving up China.
457
00:18:16.660 --> 00:18:18.410
It means they're gonna exit Vietnam
458
00:18:18.410 --> 00:18:22.300
a country that they have massive marketshare in.
459
00:18:22.300 --> 00:18:23.850
They'll exit a bunch of other countries.
460
00:18:23.850 --> 00:18:25.010
Probably the Philippines too
461
00:18:25.010 --> 00:18:26.300
where they do all their moderation.
462
00:18:26.300 --> 00:18:27.580
The way the world is going probably
463
00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:28.607
a lot of the world.
464
00:18:28.607 --> 00:18:31.010
And so look at this and if he follows through on that
465
00:18:31.010 --> 00:18:32.560
I'm gonna sit there and go man
466
00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:34.480
that is such a righteous thing to do.
467
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.056
God bless.
468
00:18:36.056 --> 00:18:37.480
You rename the second edition of this?
469
00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.684
Yeah I'll go Zucked rules.
470
00:18:40.684 --> 00:18:42.310
[laughing]
471
00:18:42.310 --> 00:18:46.820
So when I get to the part about privacy.
472
00:18:46.820 --> 00:18:49.073
I'm a big believer in end to end encryption.
473
00:18:51.292 --> 00:18:52.290
But I think we all need to understand
474
00:18:52.290 --> 00:18:54.610
that encrypting your messages
475
00:18:54.610 --> 00:18:58.038
and encrypting your posts addresses about 1%
476
00:18:58.038 --> 00:19:00.043
of the problem I'm describing.
477
00:19:01.247 --> 00:19:02.100
Yeah.
478
00:19:02.100 --> 00:19:03.540
And it has a convenient by product
479
00:19:03.540 --> 00:19:05.670
which makes me think two things.
480
00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:09.612
First there must be something bad coming.
481
00:19:09.612 --> 00:19:11.201
Maybe it's the FTC.
482
00:19:11.201 --> 00:19:13.530
Maybe it's the FTC with a fine relative
483
00:19:13.530 --> 00:19:15.710
to the consent decree.
484
00:19:15.710 --> 00:19:17.250
Maybe it's something else.
485
00:19:17.250 --> 00:19:20.120
But they're doing something that they would do anyway.
486
00:19:20.120 --> 00:19:22.370
I think they look at WeChat and go
487
00:19:22.370 --> 00:19:25.590
that's a better model for a bunch of different reasons.
488
00:19:25.590 --> 00:19:27.210
Maybe we try to go to that.
489
00:19:27.210 --> 00:19:31.250
But what I'm suggesting here is that the second element
490
00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:32.880
is the one to look at which is
491
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.990
that hey if you end to end encrypt
492
00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:37.700
your moderation problem goes away completely.
493
00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:39.560
So from Facebook's point of view
494
00:19:39.560 --> 00:19:41.450
what they're trying to do is to get credit
495
00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:45.750
for something like it's noble that doesn't actually address
496
00:19:45.750 --> 00:19:49.270
the problem that does solve their biggest business problem
497
00:19:49.270 --> 00:19:51.980
which is that they've done a lousy job protecting
498
00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:53.480
the people who use their products.
499
00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:56.140
But they're not getting rid of news feed.
500
00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:58.030
I mean there will still be.
501
00:19:58.030 --> 00:20:01.140
So that's what we're getting to the end point here.
502
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:02.480
Which is at the end of the day
503
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:03.760
the thing that really worries me
504
00:20:03.760 --> 00:20:06.990
and this so called manifesto doesn't touch it.
505
00:20:06.990 --> 00:20:11.200
Is that the value and the problems really are associated
506
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.643
with meta data and data collected outside of Facebook.
507
00:20:15.894 --> 00:20:17.260
Neither of which are covered by this manifesto.
508
00:20:17.260 --> 00:20:19.460
And so when I look at this it's you know
509
00:20:19.460 --> 00:20:21.803
Zuck made very clear in an interview a week or two ago.
510
00:20:21.803 --> 00:20:26.049
That they're not getting out of the tracking business.
511
00:20:26.049 --> 00:20:29.380
My problem with Facebook is not whether it's end
512
00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:31.032
to end encrypted or not.
513
00:20:31.032 --> 00:20:32.490
It's not what they do with my personal information.
514
00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:34.990
It's what are they doing with the tracking?
515
00:20:34.990 --> 00:20:38.888
What are they doing to invade my private spaces?
516
00:20:38.888 --> 00:20:40.950
What are they looking at?
517
00:20:40.950 --> 00:20:43.980
I'm glad they're not gonna look at text anymore.
518
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:45.210
That's a good thing.
519
00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:49.590
But I don't want them buying my credit card history.
520
00:20:49.590 --> 00:20:51.180
I do not want them doing business
521
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.030
with health and wellness apps to get all of that data.
522
00:20:54.030 --> 00:20:56.520
I do not want them buying my location data
523
00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:57.810
from my cellular carrier.
524
00:20:57.810 --> 00:21:01.844
I do not want them tracking me all around the web.
525
00:21:01.844 --> 00:21:02.880
I mean I just I'm not into that.
526
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.420
And sitting here going look we're better than this.
527
00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:06.710
They would have a great business
528
00:21:06.710 --> 00:21:08.771
without doing any of that stuff.
529
00:21:08.771 --> 00:21:10.970
I'd like to help them get there.
530
00:21:10.970 --> 00:21:13.760
So your view of Zuckerberg's privacy manifesto
531
00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:15.700
is that it's a little bit of a a head fake
532
00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:18.100
and that it's dealing with privacy in a narrow sense
533
00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:20.220
and you're concerned for privacy in a much bigger sense?
534
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:21.537
Well I would say that would be one way to put it.
535
00:21:21.537 --> 00:21:22.950
The other thing I would say is that it's
536
00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:26.160
a very effective public relations move
537
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.560
that is once again deflecting us away from the core problem.
538
00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:33.160
And the core problem is all of the tracking.
539
00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.260
Yeah and which is not a Facebook problem.
540
00:21:35.260 --> 00:21:36.840
It is an industry problem.
541
00:21:36.840 --> 00:21:41.630
I mean Google invented it in 2002 they patented in 2003.
542
00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:45.990
And then now you've also got Amazon in this business.
543
00:21:45.990 --> 00:21:47.860
Microsoft is in this business.
544
00:21:47.860 --> 00:21:49.517
And so there's a lot of people.
545
00:21:49.517 --> 00:21:51.027
There's at least four people
546
00:21:51.027 --> 00:21:53.090
who are playing this business at scale.
547
00:21:53.090 --> 00:21:55.300
Oh there's definitely more than four.
548
00:21:55.300 --> 00:21:56.240
That's a wonderful segue.
549
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:57.840
So let's go into the other news of the week.
550
00:21:57.840 --> 00:21:59.150
The reason I said it was such a perfect week
551
00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:01.750
to have Roger 'cause we have a big statement
552
00:22:01.750 --> 00:22:03.230
from Mark Zuckerberg and we have
553
00:22:03.230 --> 00:22:05.510
a big statement from Elizabeth Warren.
554
00:22:05.510 --> 00:22:07.630
Saying it's time to break up the big tech companies.
555
00:22:07.630 --> 00:22:09.370
So let's take another question from the audience.
556
00:22:09.370 --> 00:22:11.290
Can you comment on Senator Warren's suggestion
557
00:22:11.290 --> 00:22:13.150
that she'll work to dismantle organizations
558
00:22:13.150 --> 00:22:15.870
like Google and Facebook and Amazon.
559
00:22:15.870 --> 00:22:18.430
How reasonable is this and how valid?
560
00:22:18.430 --> 00:22:21.293
I think Warren's proposal is brilliant.
561
00:22:22.744 --> 00:22:24.720
[laughing]
562
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.671
Is Elizabeth Warren in the audience back there?
563
00:22:27.671 --> 00:22:28.860
[audience laughing]
564
00:22:28.860 --> 00:22:31.572
I would we can only hope.
565
00:22:31.572 --> 00:22:33.527
Okay describe the specifics
566
00:22:33.527 --> 00:22:34.840
of the proposal to the audience.
567
00:22:34.840 --> 00:22:36.482
Just in case not everyone has read medium.
568
00:22:36.482 --> 00:22:38.450
Here is the key point.
569
00:22:38.450 --> 00:22:39.283
Is that
570
00:22:41.110 --> 00:22:43.100
Warren makes a couple observations.
571
00:22:43.100 --> 00:22:46.260
One is that there is a behavior that's now rampant
572
00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:50.050
in the tech industry of people who operate a marketplace
573
00:22:50.050 --> 00:22:52.170
and then also are participating in it.
574
00:22:52.170 --> 00:22:53.510
The most obvious one of that
575
00:22:53.510 --> 00:22:56.260
is Amazon's marketplace with AmazonBasics.
576
00:22:56.260 --> 00:22:58.700
But the same thing applies to Google with respect
577
00:22:58.700 --> 00:23:00.850
to their various advertising.
578
00:23:00.850 --> 00:23:02.560
Double click is an ad market
579
00:23:02.560 --> 00:23:06.040
and they operate inside that marketplace.
580
00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:07.650
And they do so to the detriment
581
00:23:07.650 --> 00:23:09.870
of competitors and this is an issue
582
00:23:09.870 --> 00:23:11.860
that really plagues those guys and Facebook
583
00:23:11.860 --> 00:23:14.330
with its advertising products does the same thing.
584
00:23:14.330 --> 00:23:17.030
And Facebook has also done a version
585
00:23:17.030 --> 00:23:18.903
of that relative to news.
586
00:23:21.044 --> 00:23:24.780
Her basic point is that there is a fundamental element
587
00:23:24.780 --> 00:23:26.620
of fairness in the American economy
588
00:23:26.620 --> 00:23:29.140
that basically says you get to do either a marketplace
589
00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:31.030
or be a participant but not both.
590
00:23:31.030 --> 00:23:32.960
And I think there are other aspects
591
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:33.920
of this thing we can go into.
592
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.958
What I would like to point out
593
00:23:35.958 --> 00:23:38.480
is that the history of anti-trust in tech
594
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:40.540
is that it is amazingly pro-growth.
595
00:23:40.540 --> 00:23:42.649
It began in 1956.
596
00:23:42.649 --> 00:23:45.800
AT&T had a consent degree with the justice department
597
00:23:45.800 --> 00:23:49.160
which it agreed to limit itself to the telecom market.
598
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:50.810
It had two effects.
599
00:23:50.810 --> 00:23:53.360
The first was it created the computer industry
600
00:23:53.360 --> 00:23:54.270
as we knew it.
601
00:23:54.270 --> 00:23:56.643
IBM got to have a separate industry.
602
00:23:57.700 --> 00:23:58.790
And on top of that they licensed all
603
00:23:58.790 --> 00:24:01.590
of their patents including the transistor.
604
00:24:01.590 --> 00:24:04.070 line:15%
So it literally created Silicon Valley.
605
00:24:04.070 --> 00:24:06.437 line:15%
Meanwhile AT&T went to new highs.
606
00:24:06.437 --> 00:24:09.740 line:15%
In the mid-sixties there was an anti-trust case
607
00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:13.836 line:15%
against IBM that created the personal computer industry.
608
00:24:13.836 --> 00:24:16.000
IBM went to new highs.
609
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:18.910 line:15%
There was a second AT&T case in the mid-eighties
610
00:24:18.910 --> 00:24:22.150
that brought cellular forward 10 years
611
00:24:22.150 --> 00:24:24.940
and it brought broadband data communications forward
612
00:24:24.940 --> 00:24:27.310
at least that much and the components
613
00:24:27.310 --> 00:24:29.570
of AT&T went to new highs.
614
00:24:29.570 --> 00:24:31.443
Then there was the Microsoft case
615
00:24:31.443 --> 00:24:34.370
which created the internet and as we've seen lately
616
00:24:34.370 --> 00:24:36.100
Microsoft goes to new highs.
617
00:24:36.100 --> 00:24:37.880
So the history of this thing is if you want
618
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:39.630
to create a new tech industry the best thing
619
00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:41.795
to do is to put a fence around
620
00:24:41.795 --> 00:24:45.600
the monopolis who've dominated the old category.
621
00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:47.760
The basic approach that Warren is bringing
622
00:24:47.760 --> 00:24:50.980
is actually borrowed from a Republican Teddy Roosevelt.
623
00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:55.030
She's applying the same basic test that Roosevelt applied
624
00:24:55.030 --> 00:25:00.030
to Standard Oil and the other monopolies of the Gilded Age.
625
00:25:00.350 --> 00:25:01.673
Of the Robber Baron Age.
626
00:25:03.085 --> 00:25:05.100
It is what's beautiful about it
627
00:25:05.100 --> 00:25:06.937
is that it's very well thought out
628
00:25:06.937 --> 00:25:09.190
and the notion is exactly the same kinds
629
00:25:09.190 --> 00:25:11.353
of stuff she's been proposing for years around banks.
630
00:25:11.353 --> 00:25:14.270
And she is an absolute expert on that.
631
00:25:14.270 --> 00:25:16.340
The one thing I would observe is I've found
632
00:25:16.340 --> 00:25:18.290
it very gratifying that Amy Klobuchar
633
00:25:19.930 --> 00:25:21.340
who of the people running for president
634
00:25:21.340 --> 00:25:23.720
is the other person who's really focused
635
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:27.400
in this category followed almost immediately indicating
636
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:29.393
a similar point of view.
637
00:25:29.393 --> 00:25:30.934
Slightly softer but a similar point of view.
638
00:25:30.934 --> 00:25:31.767
But similar point of view.
639
00:25:31.767 --> 00:25:32.600
My point is everybody's entitled to pick.
640
00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:34.471
So the two big parts of Elizabeth Warren's
641
00:25:34.471 --> 00:25:37.030
many many parts to it.
642
00:25:37.030 --> 00:25:38.350 line:15%
But the two parts that stuck out the most.
643
00:25:38.350 --> 00:25:39.851 line:15%
One the marketplace idea which I agree with.
644
00:25:39.851 --> 00:25:43.636 line:15%
The second is to unwind mergers that have been approved
645
00:25:43.636 --> 00:25:46.540 line:15%
so in Facebook's case that would be WhatsApp and Instagram.
646
00:25:46.540 --> 00:25:48.990
And Google's place that would be YouTube.
647
00:25:48.990 --> 00:25:49.920
Do you agree with that?
648
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:51.034
It would also be Waze.
649
00:25:51.034 --> 00:25:51.867
It would also be Waze.
650
00:25:51.867 --> 00:25:52.700
And Waze yeah.
651
00:25:52.700 --> 00:25:53.533
Do you agree with that?
652
00:25:53.533 --> 00:25:55.410
Would you unwind Instagram and WhatsApp from Facebook?
653
00:25:55.410 --> 00:25:56.650
Would you unwind YouTube from Google?
654
00:25:56.650 --> 00:25:57.610
I would like to try.
655
00:25:57.610 --> 00:26:01.200
I went to Google a year ago and proposed to them
656
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.168
that they spinoff YouTube because I thought
657
00:26:03.168 --> 00:26:05.900
that YouTube's incentive structure was preventing them
658
00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:08.030
from addressing all the toxic activity
659
00:26:08.030 --> 00:26:09.670
that goes on inside YouTube.
660
00:26:09.670 --> 00:26:11.210
And that YouTube would be better off as
661
00:26:11.210 --> 00:26:13.631
an independent business for that reason.
662
00:26:13.631 --> 00:26:16.130
As for Facebook a year earlier
663
00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:18.510
they were not too interested in my point of view.
664
00:26:18.510 --> 00:26:21.411
But shock.
665
00:26:21.411 --> 00:26:22.760
[audience laughing]
666
00:26:22.760 --> 00:26:24.560
Are you advising Elizabeth Warren?
667
00:26:26.107 --> 00:26:27.220
Advising is too strong a word.
668
00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:29.660
I have met with Senator Warren.
669
00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:31.020
I've met with her staff.
670
00:26:31.020 --> 00:26:32.450
I've met with uh.
671
00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:34.050
What other Democratic candidates have you met with
672
00:26:34.050 --> 00:26:35.930
to give advice to on anti-trust?
673
00:26:35.930 --> 00:26:38.643
So I've met with Klobuchar's staff.
674
00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:42.170
I've met with Cory Booker.
675
00:26:42.170 --> 00:26:43.720
I've met with a number of people.
676
00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:47.280
I'm very very supportive of the approach
677
00:26:47.280 --> 00:26:50.330
that Warren has here and I have talked
678
00:26:50.330 --> 00:26:51.883
to the policy people.
679
00:26:53.610 --> 00:26:56.640
They reached out to me before they did this.
680
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.710
I was happy to help and I would help any candidate
681
00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:02.440
who was looking to focus in this area.
682
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:03.690
All right well all the Democratic candidates
683
00:27:03.690 --> 00:27:06.000
are here at south by any of them wants
684
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.440
to talk about anti-trust Roger's available backstage.
685
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.230
Well I would say it goes beyond anti-trust though.
686
00:27:09.230 --> 00:27:10.063
That's what I wanna ask next.
687
00:27:10.063 --> 00:27:11.096
Let's talk about the agenda.
688
00:27:11.096 --> 00:27:12.850
I wanna talk about all the other things related
689
00:27:12.850 --> 00:27:14.360
to these platforms.
690
00:27:14.360 --> 00:27:16.300
But before we leave anti-trust there's another element
691
00:27:16.300 --> 00:27:17.390
of Warren's proposal that I think
692
00:27:17.390 --> 00:27:19.361
you have particular insight into.
693
00:27:19.361 --> 00:27:20.997
So the answer to the question is yes.
694
00:27:20.997 --> 00:27:23.198
I have advised Warren's team about this stuff.
695
00:27:23.198 --> 00:27:26.320
There's an element of what Warren wrote
696
00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:27.160
in that Medium post.
697
00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.720
One thing she said is that venture capital
698
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:32.090
is less likely to fund startups because they know
699
00:27:32.090 --> 00:27:35.670
that the big companies can crush the startups.
700
00:27:35.670 --> 00:27:36.860
That's been my experience.
701
00:27:36.860 --> 00:27:37.960
You could also look at it the other way.
702
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:39.440
That venture capital is very happy
703
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:40.680
to fund startups because you know
704
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.020
that the big monopoly companies will over pay
705
00:27:43.020 --> 00:27:45.466
for acqui-hires or for technology they can bring in.
706
00:27:45.466 --> 00:27:49.350
But acqui-hires are always a failure
707
00:27:49.350 --> 00:27:50.530
from the venture guy's point of view.
708
00:27:50.530 --> 00:27:52.040
What's really been going on.
709
00:27:52.040 --> 00:27:54.950
And Google again this is how smart these guys are.
710
00:27:54.950 --> 00:27:57.410
Google Ventures goes out there and says gosh.
711
00:27:57.410 --> 00:27:59.530
We're gonna invest in blockchain.
712
00:27:59.530 --> 00:28:01.420
We're gonna invest in scooters.
713
00:28:01.420 --> 00:28:04.150
We've gonna invest in stuff your parents used to do for ya.
714
00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:06.820
And they attract billions of dollars
715
00:28:06.820 --> 00:28:09.720
into those categories which are more capital type.
716
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:10.870
They may be great categories.
717
00:28:10.870 --> 00:28:13.810
But they're more capital intensive than core WEP.
718
00:28:13.810 --> 00:28:16.200
And so they take billions of dollars out
719
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.840
of their competitive space and put it elsewhere.
720
00:28:18.840 --> 00:28:21.760
Meanwhile they go in and crush lots.
721
00:28:21.760 --> 00:28:23.850
Anything that sticks its head up.
722
00:28:23.850 --> 00:28:25.849
You know what if you simply look at what
723
00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:29.800
Instagram slash Facebook are doing to Snap right now.
724
00:28:29.800 --> 00:28:32.170
I mean that goes on every single day.
725
00:28:32.170 --> 00:28:34.210
And the venture guys and the entrepreneurs
726
00:28:34.210 --> 00:28:37.340
are looking at this going I'm gonna steer clear of this.
727
00:28:37.340 --> 00:28:39.870
As a venture guy after Facebook puts into,
728
00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:42.030
after Facebook acquires Oculus you would look
729
00:28:42.030 --> 00:28:44.420
at all VR companies differently and you would say no way.
730
00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:46.560
Oh I can tell you that's exactly what happened.
731
00:28:46.560 --> 00:28:49.030
I mean Oculus that intellectual property
732
00:28:49.030 --> 00:28:50.270
was coming out of USC.
733
00:28:50.270 --> 00:28:52.300
It was available more or less to anybody.
734
00:28:52.300 --> 00:28:56.005
And it just stopped once they put their money in.
735
00:28:56.005 --> 00:28:58.710
I can't tell you exactly what their rate
736
00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:00.040
of development should've been
737
00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:01.770
but I can tell you at the time they bought it.
738
00:29:01.770 --> 00:29:03.584
They thought they were gonna have
739
00:29:03.584 --> 00:29:04.840
a consumer product out before now.
740
00:29:04.840 --> 00:29:06.697
And so one other reason to support anti-trust would be?
741
00:29:06.697 --> 00:29:08.571
And the incentives are less inside Facebook
742
00:29:08.571 --> 00:29:12.670
than they would be if you were living paycheck
743
00:29:12.670 --> 00:29:15.120
to paycheck the way a normal venture company would.
744
00:29:15.120 --> 00:29:17.720
So my simple point here is not that any
745
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.050
of these other categories are not interesting categories.
746
00:29:20.050 --> 00:29:22.550
But rather that they have successfully diverted
747
00:29:22.550 --> 00:29:24.200
an enormous amount of capital away
748
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:26.130
from competition in their core space
749
00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:28.270
at a very time when we should be having
750
00:29:28.270 --> 00:29:30.920
distributed alternatives to every single thing they do.
751
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.376
I mean my core point here is and I'm really optimistic
752
00:29:33.376 --> 00:29:35.060
'cause this is a problem.
753
00:29:35.060 --> 00:29:37.150
The technology solution for which should create
754
00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:39.753
the biggest economic opportunity of our lifetime.
755
00:29:40.921 --> 00:29:45.327
The industry is like pegged to the centralized model
756
00:29:45.327 --> 00:29:48.070
which is nuts 'cause historically it goes back
757
00:29:48.070 --> 00:29:50.270
and forth from centralized to distributed.
758
00:29:50.270 --> 00:29:53.080
And Apple should not be the only guy doing distributing.
759
00:29:53.080 --> 00:29:54.240
I mean it's nuts.
760
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.640
So I wanna ask one more thing about anti-trust.
761
00:29:57.640 --> 00:29:59.060
So my concern.
762
00:29:59.060 --> 00:30:00.400
I've always bought the argument
763
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.490
that certainly we want more competition.
764
00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:03.730
Certainly there would be more competition
765
00:30:03.730 --> 00:30:05.700
if there weren't monopolies.
766
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.810
Do I want the Donald Trump Justice Department
767
00:30:07.810 --> 00:30:09.680
trying to figure out a solution
768
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:10.530
and a sensible solution to break up
769
00:30:10.530 --> 00:30:12.590
these large tech companies in a way
770
00:30:12.590 --> 00:30:14.060
that will make the American economy more efficient?
771
00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:15.310
No I do not.
772
00:30:15.310 --> 00:30:17.410
Do I want a different Department of Justice
773
00:30:17.410 --> 00:30:18.946
to break them up?
774
00:30:18.946 --> 00:30:20.320
Possibly but if you're dependent upon
775
00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:22.450
the goodwill of the Department of Justice
776
00:30:22.450 --> 00:30:24.780
to carry out anti-trust effectively then are you making
777
00:30:24.780 --> 00:30:27.070
a mistake to trust any Department of Justice with it?
778
00:30:27.070 --> 00:30:29.480
So I have a different point than you okay.
779
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.110
So I have been spending time
780
00:30:31.110 --> 00:30:33.270
with the Trump Justice Department
781
00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:36.730
and the Trump Federal Trade Commission.
782
00:30:36.730 --> 00:30:39.071
And I'm happy to take my chances with them.
783
00:30:39.071 --> 00:30:41.820
I think they are not only well meaning people.
784
00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:43.970
I think they're taking this very seriously.
785
00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:44.895
Here's the thing.
786
00:30:44.895 --> 00:30:49.880
If you believe in sort of Republican economic values.
787
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:52.400
Anti-trust is a Republican concept.
788
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:53.233
Absolutely.
789
00:30:53.233 --> 00:30:54.120
It is very pro-growth.
790
00:30:54.120 --> 00:30:56.200
It is very pro-entrepreneurship.
791
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:58.490
And if you're in the Trump administration
792
00:30:58.490 --> 00:31:02.340
you know that these guys have over played their hand.
793
00:31:02.340 --> 00:31:03.390
They've gone too far.
794
00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:04.960
Something has to be done.
795
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:06.680
And if you're gonna do something.
796
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.620
Better anti-trust than some heavyweight
797
00:31:11.479 --> 00:31:13.280
regulatory framework that kills everybody.
798
00:31:13.280 --> 00:31:14.960
I mean the problem
799
00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:17.390
with global data protection regulation is twofold.
800
00:31:17.390 --> 00:31:19.200
It aims at the wrong problem
801
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.280
which is the data you put in the system.
802
00:31:21.280 --> 00:31:24.530
And it's incredibly cumbersome and heavyweight on everybody.
803
00:31:24.530 --> 00:31:26.584
And what I would rather do is to see approaches
804
00:31:26.584 --> 00:31:29.430
that allow entrepreneurship to happen.
805
00:31:29.430 --> 00:31:30.320
Allow small things.
806
00:31:30.320 --> 00:31:31.260
Allow competition.
807
00:31:31.260 --> 00:31:32.690
Different business models.
808
00:31:32.690 --> 00:31:35.500
Different product architectures right?
809
00:31:35.500 --> 00:31:37.810
This notion that everything has to be Cloud based
810
00:31:37.810 --> 00:31:40.450
just because you can start on Amazon Web Services?
811
00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:41.283
I mean that's nuts.
812
00:31:41.283 --> 00:31:42.570
The first thing I wanna do is create
813
00:31:42.570 --> 00:31:44.710
an alternative to Amazon Web Services
814
00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:49.710
that has virtual clouds and is highly distributed
815
00:31:50.157 --> 00:31:52.520
and most of the stuff happens on your phone.
816
00:31:52.520 --> 00:31:53.970
They give you similar kinds of things.
817
00:31:53.970 --> 00:31:55.050
Now what do you mean the first thing you wanna do?
818
00:31:55.050 --> 00:31:56.200
You wanna start that company?
819
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:57.590
You wanna invest in that company?
820
00:31:57.590 --> 00:31:59.190
Well if I were in the investment business anymore
821
00:31:59.190 --> 00:32:00.940
that's what I would wanna do right?
822
00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:03.660
And I wanna do things for private login.
823
00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:04.670
That protect your data.
824
00:32:04.670 --> 00:32:07.240
I think there's a lot more of us than there are of them
825
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.390
so I think if you make products for real human beings.
826
00:32:10.390 --> 00:32:11.990
That's a giant business opportunity.
827
00:32:11.990 --> 00:32:12.823
I mean you sold out a giant convention hall here
828
00:32:12.823 --> 00:32:14.143
at South By Southwest with your book.
829
00:32:14.143 --> 00:32:16.330
Hang on guys I'm really serious about this.
830
00:32:16.330 --> 00:32:17.410
You can change he world.
831
00:32:17.410 --> 00:32:18.430
We all can.
832
00:32:18.430 --> 00:32:21.720
We not only have the votes to constrain this business model.
833
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:23.230
We have more than enough intellect
834
00:32:23.230 --> 00:32:25.560
and there's more than enough capital out there
835
00:32:25.560 --> 00:32:28.520
to create new models that are worth way way more
836
00:32:28.520 --> 00:32:31.090
to us than whatever it is we can do with the margin
837
00:32:31.090 --> 00:32:33.323
of Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft.
838
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.040
All right let's move to the.
839
00:32:36.040 --> 00:32:37.849
I was checking because.
840
00:32:37.849 --> 00:32:40.040
[audience clapping]
841
00:32:40.040 --> 00:32:42.080
I paused there 'cause if there was applause
842
00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:42.920
then I figured he was right
843
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:44.721
and if there wasn't I figured I'll just hate watch him.
844
00:32:44.721 --> 00:32:47.570
All right another question from the audience.
845
00:32:47.570 --> 00:32:49.490
Which I think flows very nicely from what you just said.
846
00:32:49.490 --> 00:32:51.100
Platforms are much more regulated
847
00:32:51.100 --> 00:32:53.270
and under jurisdiction in the European Union.
848
00:32:53.270 --> 00:32:54.580
What do you make of the European approach
849
00:32:54.580 --> 00:32:56.040
to platforms in digital tech?
850
00:32:56.040 --> 00:32:58.120
Yeah so here's the thing.
851
00:32:58.120 --> 00:32:59.620
You're a peasant advantage right?
852
00:32:59.620 --> 00:33:01.750
None of these guys are based there right?
853
00:33:01.750 --> 00:33:04.430
In fact hardly any entrepreneurship is based there
854
00:33:04.430 --> 00:33:06.810
so there's less self impact.
855
00:33:06.810 --> 00:33:07.643
Chicken egg right?
856
00:33:07.643 --> 00:33:08.973
I mean you are?
857
00:33:08.973 --> 00:33:09.806
No no but I'm saying there's less self impact
858
00:33:09.806 --> 00:33:11.693
from putting heavyweight regulation on them.
859
00:33:11.693 --> 00:33:13.216
That is true but you could also argue
860
00:33:13.216 --> 00:33:15.247
that the heavy regulation is why those guys aren't.
861
00:33:15.247 --> 00:33:16.080
But let's not get into that.
862
00:33:16.080 --> 00:33:16.970
You keep going on your roll.
863
00:33:16.970 --> 00:33:21.520
Well all I'm saying here is imagine you're me right?
864
00:33:21.520 --> 00:33:22.790
And you're sitting there trying to have
865
00:33:22.790 --> 00:33:26.720
a conversation about what kind of world do we wanna live in?
866
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:28.490
The Europeans have been in the game
867
00:33:28.490 --> 00:33:30.890
for a few years and they've called attention
868
00:33:30.890 --> 00:33:32.740
to a whole bunch of the problems.
869
00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:34.790
For that I'm eternally grateful.
870
00:33:34.790 --> 00:33:37.910
If I get a chance to do this I wanna do it a different way.
871
00:33:37.910 --> 00:33:40.210
So for example the State of California has passed
872
00:33:40.210 --> 00:33:43.870
a privacy law modeled on global data protection regulation.
873
00:33:43.870 --> 00:33:45.547
Again it's way too narrow.
874
00:33:45.547 --> 00:33:48.340
It's less heavyweight than GDPR.
875
00:33:49.310 --> 00:33:51.870
But there is a bill coming before
876
00:33:51.870 --> 00:33:53.470
the California legislature that I think
877
00:33:53.470 --> 00:33:55.500
is wildly more important.
878
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:57.490
And that pierces.
879
00:33:57.490 --> 00:34:00.090
That pierces the terms of service
880
00:34:00.090 --> 00:34:04.586
to give every person who uses these products
881
00:34:04.586 --> 00:34:08.473
a right to sue to recover damages.
882
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:13.850
This is really important because it changes incentives.
883
00:34:13.850 --> 00:34:16.080
If you want companies to self regulate
884
00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:18.270
there's gotta be an incentive on the other side.
885
00:34:18.270 --> 00:34:19.690
There's gotta be a penalty.
886
00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:20.900
The problem with all this stuff
887
00:34:20.900 --> 00:34:22.380
is there have been no penalties.
888
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:23.720
This is why you've kept your Facebook account.
889
00:34:23.720 --> 00:34:25.586
So you can join the class action suit.
890
00:34:25.586 --> 00:34:27.680
[audience laughing]
891
00:34:27.680 --> 00:34:29.560
I had not thought about that but that's why
892
00:34:29.560 --> 00:34:32.240
he gets paid the big bucks right?
893
00:34:32.240 --> 00:34:34.650
It's why he's in charge of this panel
894
00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:36.575
and I'm just a victim.
895
00:34:36.575 --> 00:34:38.240
[audience laughing]
896
00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:39.890
All right let's go through the rest
897
00:34:39.890 --> 00:34:40.930
of your regulatory agenda.
898
00:34:40.930 --> 00:34:43.960
So give us the Roger McNamee five point regulatory agenda
899
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:45.620
for the tech industry.
900
00:34:45.620 --> 00:34:47.582
So the critical thing is I wanna clear space
901
00:34:47.582 --> 00:34:49.794
for startups for innovation.
902
00:34:49.794 --> 00:34:53.348
For alternative business models using anti-trust.
903
00:34:53.348 --> 00:34:55.651
The most important thing I want to do
904
00:34:55.651 --> 00:34:56.920
is I want to have a national debate
905
00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:00.270
as part of the 2020 election cycle.
906
00:35:00.270 --> 00:35:05.270
On whether or not it should be legal for companies.
907
00:35:05.540 --> 00:35:09.230
Any corporation or anybody to do commerce.
908
00:35:09.230 --> 00:35:10.150
Either by selling,
909
00:35:10.150 --> 00:35:10.983
trading,
910
00:35:10.983 --> 00:35:15.983
or even acquiring our private data
911
00:35:16.190 --> 00:35:18.600
without our explicit permission
912
00:35:18.600 --> 00:35:19.660
for that transaction
913
00:35:19.660 --> 00:35:23.860
So why is it legel for credit card processors and banks
914
00:35:23.860 --> 00:35:27.220
to sell our personal financial transaction records?
915
00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:29.610
Why is it legal for cellular companies
916
00:35:29.610 --> 00:35:31.390
to sell our location?
917
00:35:31.390 --> 00:35:33.310
Why is it legal
918
00:35:33.310 --> 00:35:38.310
for companies that make apps for health and wellness
919
00:35:40.020 --> 00:35:42.930
to sell or trade our health and wellness data?
920
00:35:42.930 --> 00:35:46.260
Why is it legal for anybody on the web
921
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:49.993
to transact in our web history?
922
00:35:53.007 --> 00:35:54.676
Why is it legal for anybody
923
00:35:54.676 --> 00:35:56.090
to even collect data on kids under 18?
924
00:35:56.090 --> 00:35:57.473
Much less sell lit.
925
00:35:58.973 --> 00:36:02.727
[audience clapping]
926
00:36:02.727 --> 00:36:05.170
I want to have that conversation and that debate.
927
00:36:05.170 --> 00:36:07.400
I want to find out what the lines are.
928
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:09.870
My preferred way of doing it is to say no
929
00:36:09.870 --> 00:36:13.540
to all of those things and then have the conversation.
930
00:36:13.540 --> 00:36:15.697
And just say look what are the terms where it's okay?
931
00:36:15.697 --> 00:36:17.760
I mean it's obviously okay
932
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.640
for you to give your location to Uber.
933
00:36:20.640 --> 00:36:21.740
But I don't think it should be okay
934
00:36:21.740 --> 00:36:24.290
for Uber to then own your location history
935
00:36:24.290 --> 00:36:27.340
and trade it to somebody else right?
936
00:36:27.340 --> 00:36:29.760
It's obviously okay for your credit card processor
937
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.440
to have your credit card history.
938
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:33.330
It's just not cool for them to sell it
939
00:36:33.330 --> 00:36:35.270
to anybody who wants it.
940
00:36:35.270 --> 00:36:36.720
And I look at this.
941
00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:38.450
But that's the debate I wanna have.
942
00:36:38.450 --> 00:36:39.880
And if you disagree with me you know what?
943
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:40.910
God bless.
944
00:36:40.910 --> 00:36:42.640
But let's have the conversation.
945
00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:43.937
And I think it should be part of 2020
946
00:36:43.937 --> 00:36:46.370
'cause here's what's cool about it.
947
00:36:46.370 --> 00:36:49.090
That's not a right versus left issue.
948
00:36:49.090 --> 00:36:51.294
It's a right versus wrong issue.
949
00:36:51.294 --> 00:36:54.294
[audience clapping]
950
00:36:57.810 --> 00:37:02.490
I don't want to live in a totalitarian country.
951
00:37:02.490 --> 00:37:04.980
And I think that should apply to corporations
952
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:06.960
as well as the government.
953
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:08.771
My life is way more regulated
954
00:37:08.771 --> 00:37:11.810
by the code and the algorithms of these companies
955
00:37:11.810 --> 00:37:12.923
than it is by the law.
956
00:37:14.090 --> 00:37:15.850
And I'm sorta sittin' there going you know what?
957
00:37:15.850 --> 00:37:18.660
There's gotta be a limit right?
958
00:37:18.660 --> 00:37:20.230
I mean I look at Google Street View
959
00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:23.370
and I look at Google you know with the satellite views
960
00:37:23.370 --> 00:37:26.800
and I look at Pokémon Go.
961
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:30.180
And go the thing isn't your data right?
962
00:37:30.180 --> 00:37:31.013
You know what I'm saying?
963
00:37:31.013 --> 00:37:33.430
The issue here isn't that your data's out there.
964
00:37:33.430 --> 00:37:35.240
The issue is that they're getting data
965
00:37:35.240 --> 00:37:39.160
that's public that should be protected for everybody.
966
00:37:39.160 --> 00:37:40.820
It's like they put a fence around
967
00:37:40.820 --> 00:37:43.240
the park and now they're charging admission.
968
00:37:43.240 --> 00:37:44.610
And I'm going hang on.
969
00:37:44.610 --> 00:37:47.870
I don't want behavioral modification in my life.
970
00:37:47.870 --> 00:37:50.250
I play this game against Google.
971
00:37:50.250 --> 00:37:52.850
Getting off Google is really hard.
972
00:37:52.850 --> 00:37:54.587
You've probably seen Kashmir Hill and some
973
00:37:54.587 --> 00:37:56.380
of the other people try to do it.
974
00:37:56.380 --> 00:37:57.420
So tried to do it.
975
00:37:57.420 --> 00:37:59.760
I realized I had to make it a video game.
976
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:01.173
I turned it into Frogger.
977
00:38:02.370 --> 00:38:03.450
I'm the frog.
978
00:38:03.450 --> 00:38:05.200
Google's the river.
979
00:38:05.200 --> 00:38:06.370
I was doing really well.
980
00:38:06.370 --> 00:38:08.480
So I was doing really well 'til just the other day.
981
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:09.600
I was gonna meet somebody
982
00:38:09.600 --> 00:38:12.240
in Cambridge, Massachusetts last week.
983
00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:13.800
They sent me their location
984
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.230
and it was like they used a url shortening
985
00:38:17.459 --> 00:38:18.383
and I wasn't paying attention.
986
00:38:18.383 --> 00:38:19.370
I open up it's Google Maps.
987
00:38:19.370 --> 00:38:20.220
I'm in the river.
988
00:38:21.310 --> 00:38:22.143
[audience laughing]
989
00:38:22.143 --> 00:38:22.976
All right so now the Frogger game
990
00:38:22.976 --> 00:38:24.760
is you're trying not to click?
991
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:25.593
My high score is two months.
992
00:38:25.593 --> 00:38:27.211
If you can top it call me okay?
993
00:38:27.211 --> 00:38:28.710
You've gone two months without watching YouTube?
994
00:38:28.710 --> 00:38:29.543
Yeah.
995
00:38:29.543 --> 00:38:30.376
Wow.
996
00:38:30.376 --> 00:38:31.418
It's really hard.
997
00:38:31.418 --> 00:38:33.040
If you're a musician going two months without YouTube
998
00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:35.090
is brutally difficult okay?
999
00:38:35.090 --> 00:38:36.160
That's tough stuff.
1000
00:38:36.160 --> 00:38:37.130
And that's the point.
1001
00:38:37.130 --> 00:38:39.615
These guys are everywhere right?
1002
00:38:39.615 --> 00:38:41.780
Look everybody does it the wrong way.
1003
00:38:41.780 --> 00:38:43.930
The thing that's beautiful about this
1004
00:38:43.930 --> 00:38:45.190
is we just need to talk about it.
1005
00:38:45.190 --> 00:38:47.317
We need to decide what's okay.
1006
00:38:47.317 --> 00:38:49.060
And we need to do it together.
1007
00:38:49.060 --> 00:38:51.691
So nobody send Roger a Bitly link
1008
00:38:51.691 --> 00:38:54.133
with a YouTube embed of this talk.
1009
00:38:56.190 --> 00:38:57.920
You said you don't wanna live in a totalitarian country
1010
00:38:57.920 --> 00:38:59.450
which I think is a good segue into another thing
1011
00:38:59.450 --> 00:39:01.266
I wanna talk to you about which is China
1012
00:39:01.266 --> 00:39:03.340
All right so I think that one
1013
00:39:03.340 --> 00:39:05.940
of the greatest threats to technology in the world
1014
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:07.440
and some ways to open societies
1015
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:09.190
and your friend George Soros has made this point.
1016
00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:12.120
Is that the world divides into a US tech sphere
1017
00:39:12.120 --> 00:39:13.270
and a Chinese tech sphere.
1018
00:39:13.270 --> 00:39:14.970
And in fact the Chinese tech sphere
1019
00:39:14.970 --> 00:39:16.730
which gets massive subsidies by the government
1020
00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:19.030
and has no restrictions or has few restrictions
1021
00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:21.640
on privacy develops much more quickly.
1022
00:39:21.640 --> 00:39:24.240
China's artificial intelligence develops more quickly
1023
00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:26.680
as well because artificial intelligence particularly
1024
00:39:26.680 --> 00:39:29.750
the subset of machine learning thrives on data.
1025
00:39:29.750 --> 00:39:33.010
So you could look at the world as it is right now
1026
00:39:33.010 --> 00:39:35.180
cleaving into US tech sector
1027
00:39:35.180 --> 00:39:36.662
and a Chinese tech sector and say
1028
00:39:36.662 --> 00:39:39.040
is it the right policy for the US government
1029
00:39:39.040 --> 00:39:41.649
to keep kickin' the big tech companies
1030
00:39:41.649 --> 00:39:43.390
in the shins while the Chinese government
1031
00:39:43.390 --> 00:39:44.674
is helping them as much as possible?
1032
00:39:44.674 --> 00:39:45.507
Is that what we wanna do?
1033
00:39:45.507 --> 00:39:46.400
So let's start with that and let's get into
1034
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.159
this bigger question more broadly 'cause I think
1035
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:49.734
it's one of the most interesting debates
1036
00:39:49.734 --> 00:39:51.200
that the world's not having enough of right now.
1037
00:39:51.200 --> 00:39:53.730
So a couple thoughts about this.
1038
00:39:53.730 --> 00:39:55.410
First of all I would like to believe
1039
00:39:55.410 --> 00:39:57.131
that AI is not just one thing.
1040
00:39:57.131 --> 00:39:59.170
Definitely, definitely.
1041
00:39:59.170 --> 00:40:01.230
I believe AI is many things
1042
00:40:02.194 --> 00:40:04.210
and that AI can be the technology penicillin
1043
00:40:04.210 --> 00:40:06.540
of the 21st century if we direct it
1044
00:40:06.540 --> 00:40:08.885
at things that actually improve.
1045
00:40:08.885 --> 00:40:09.718
Either the penicillin or the Ebola.
1046
00:40:09.718 --> 00:40:11.224
I'm with you.
1047
00:40:11.224 --> 00:40:12.620
Okay well I'd like to go for penicillin.
1048
00:40:12.620 --> 00:40:14.126
I agree more likely.
1049
00:40:14.126 --> 00:40:15.518
More likely.
1050
00:40:15.518 --> 00:40:17.930
The Chinese have a culture
1051
00:40:17.930 --> 00:40:22.290
in which social credit is an exeporal extension
1052
00:40:22.290 --> 00:40:24.950
of a whole bunch of things going on in their society.
1053
00:40:24.950 --> 00:40:26.740
I actually believe social credit
1054
00:40:26.740 --> 00:40:29.230
will undermine a lot of the health of their economy
1055
00:40:29.230 --> 00:40:31.990
in the long run because it was change incentives
1056
00:40:31.990 --> 00:40:35.803
in subtle but profound ways over time.
1057
00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:39.120
So if you sit there and look at the reason.
1058
00:40:39.120 --> 00:40:40.910
Google goes into the Defense Department
1059
00:40:40.910 --> 00:40:44.477
and says our AI is the most strategic technology
1060
00:40:44.477 --> 00:40:46.290
in the 21st century.
1061
00:40:46.290 --> 00:40:47.730
Do not regulate us right?
1062
00:40:47.730 --> 00:40:52.360
Protect us from any kind of break up or regulation.
1063
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:53.590
Meanwhile they go to the Chinese
1064
00:40:53.590 --> 00:40:56.210
and say here how would you like Dragonfly right?
1065
00:40:56.210 --> 00:40:58.830
And it's got the same AI underneath it.
1066
00:40:58.830 --> 00:41:00.733
My simple observation is I don't believe
1067
00:41:00.733 --> 00:41:04.580
that the United States has a prayer of winning
1068
00:41:04.580 --> 00:41:07.630
the AI race in behavioral modification.
1069
00:41:07.630 --> 00:41:09.180
We don't have the size of population.
1070
00:41:09.180 --> 00:41:11.440
We don't have the control of the data
1071
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:12.600
that the Chinese have.
1072
00:41:12.600 --> 00:41:15.100
And I would point out culturally speaking
1073
00:41:15.100 --> 00:41:17.416
behavioral modification is about
1074
00:41:17.416 --> 00:41:19.160
as un-American as anything I can imagine.
1075
00:41:19.160 --> 00:41:22.050
And so I'm sitting there going I would like our AI
1076
00:41:22.050 --> 00:41:25.290
to have two fundamentally American characteristics.
1077
00:41:25.290 --> 00:41:27.050
I want it to be about freedom
1078
00:41:27.050 --> 00:41:29.790
not about behavioral modification.
1079
00:41:29.790 --> 00:41:31.520
And I want it to be about entrepreneurship.
1080
00:41:31.520 --> 00:41:34.380
I want to let I think the way we do best
1081
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.250
in AI is to let a thousand flowers bloom
1082
00:41:37.250 --> 00:41:38.790
in a thousand different spaces.
1083
00:41:38.790 --> 00:41:41.419
And I would like one of the regulatory things that we do
1084
00:41:41.419 --> 00:41:44.960
is to say that these technologies are at least as important.
1085
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.330
I would argue more important than energy exploration
1086
00:41:49.330 --> 00:41:51.210
which we currently give incentives to.
1087
00:41:51.210 --> 00:41:54.220
And certain classes of farming which we give incentives to.
1088
00:41:54.220 --> 00:41:56.080
I think the government should be providing incentives
1089
00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:59.710
for people to do technology that is good for people.
1090
00:41:59.710 --> 00:42:01.760
Better business models of social.
1091
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:03.620
Better business models of AI.
1092
00:42:03.620 --> 00:42:05.700
Things that actually make a difference.
1093
00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:07.767
And again I wanna make this one
1094
00:42:07.767 --> 00:42:10.360
of the core issues of 2020 because I think
1095
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:12.450
it's something that applies to everybody.
1096
00:42:12.450 --> 00:42:13.730
So I couldn't agree more with that.
1097
00:42:13.730 --> 00:42:18.050
So the government incentives to increase entrepreneurship
1098
00:42:18.050 --> 00:42:22.330
in AI would be A by creating a more competitive marketplace
1099
00:42:22.330 --> 00:42:24.595
you help many other companies bloom.
1100
00:42:24.595 --> 00:42:25.428
Well you protect them.
1101
00:42:25.428 --> 00:42:27.320
You make sure that they can't be snuffed out again
1102
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:29.160
the way I'm under contract.
1103
00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:30.670
There's some names I can't say out loud
1104
00:42:30.670 --> 00:42:32.640
but have had the personal experience
1105
00:42:32.640 --> 00:42:34.140
of companies being snuffed out
1106
00:42:34.140 --> 00:42:36.540
and you have to find a way to prevent that from happening.
1107
00:42:36.540 --> 00:42:38.150
So prevent companies from getting snuffed out.
1108
00:42:38.150 --> 00:42:40.131
Do you open up government databases for AI researchers?
1109
00:42:40.131 --> 00:42:42.550
Do you publicly fund universities?
1110
00:42:42.550 --> 00:42:43.550
What else is your agenda
1111
00:42:43.550 --> 00:42:46.810
for improving American AI focused on freedom?
1112
00:42:46.810 --> 00:42:50.027
Well I would go far enough to say you know.
1113
00:42:50.027 --> 00:42:52.060
You can use the tax code.
1114
00:42:52.060 --> 00:42:54.060
You can provide capital.
1115
00:42:54.060 --> 00:42:56.210
I mean there are all kinds of things that we can do today.
1116
00:42:56.210 --> 00:42:57.480
This stuff's really important.
1117
00:42:57.480 --> 00:42:59.750
I mean we've subsidized space exploration.
1118
00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:02.400
We've subsidized aircraft innovation.
1119
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.600
I don't see any reason why we can't do that around here.
1120
00:43:05.600 --> 00:43:07.510
Why wouldn't you give a tax break?
1121
00:43:07.510 --> 00:43:09.480
I mean for example you might sit there
1122
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:12.010
and get rid of the carried interest deduction
1123
00:43:12.010 --> 00:43:14.244
for venture capital funds except for the things
1124
00:43:14.244 --> 00:43:16.830
that are done in this category.
1125
00:43:16.830 --> 00:43:17.950
Part of what I like listening to you
1126
00:43:17.950 --> 00:43:19.910
is that this combination of Libertarianism right.
1127
00:43:19.910 --> 00:43:21.570
We really need to push on freedom
1128
00:43:21.570 --> 00:43:24.100
and Silicon Valley has long Libertarian roots.
1129
00:43:24.100 --> 00:43:26.644
And then also strong government action.
1130
00:43:26.644 --> 00:43:28.560
These things are not incompatible.
1131
00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:29.393
Of course.
1132
00:43:29.393 --> 00:43:30.226
If you study history.
1133
00:43:30.226 --> 00:43:31.059
Let me just give me a sec.
1134
00:43:32.247 --> 00:43:33.427
Study history.
1135
00:43:33.427 --> 00:43:35.210
In capitalism the role of government is to set the rules
1136
00:43:35.210 --> 00:43:37.910
and then enforce them fairly across the whole economy.
1137
00:43:39.010 --> 00:43:43.020
When we started the current era in 1981
1138
00:43:43.902 --> 00:43:46.250
we got rid of a lot of regulation
1139
00:43:46.250 --> 00:43:50.290
and a lot of things that have become part of the problem.
1140
00:43:50.290 --> 00:43:52.380
But eventually you hit the point
1141
00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:54.350
where the deregulation just entrenched
1142
00:43:54.350 --> 00:43:56.660
the largest incumbents and led to monopoly.
1143
00:43:56.660 --> 00:43:59.250
Not just in tech but across the entire economy.
1144
00:43:59.250 --> 00:44:01.222
And it's just gone too far.
1145
00:44:01.222 --> 00:44:03.453
My basic point is I wanna get back to capitalism.
1146
00:44:03.453 --> 00:44:05.360
All right.
1147
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:06.610
Let's ask you another question from the audience
1148
00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:08.389
'cause it ties in well here.
1149
00:44:08.389 --> 00:44:09.222
So the question is isn't the problem
1150
00:44:09.222 --> 00:44:10.873
a lack of ethical moral core rather than a lack
1151
00:44:10.873 --> 00:44:12.750
of external regulation?
1152
00:44:12.750 --> 00:44:15.920
Which I think ties in to the question of AI.
1153
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.550
Both as we build out AI how do we make sure
1154
00:44:18.550 --> 00:44:20.200
it has values that we all agree with?
1155
00:44:20.200 --> 00:44:21.722
And how do we support that?
1156
00:44:21.722 --> 00:44:26.722
I think there hasn't been any societal pressure
1157
00:44:26.740 --> 00:44:28.300
to have an ethical moral core.
1158
00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:32.590
We've operated for the last 38 years with the notion
1159
00:44:32.590 --> 00:44:34.670
that the only constituency that should matter
1160
00:44:34.670 --> 00:44:37.580
to a corporation are its shareholders.
1161
00:44:37.580 --> 00:44:40.230
We used to believe before 1981
1162
00:44:40.230 --> 00:44:42.470
that a shareholder owed a duty
1163
00:44:42.470 --> 00:44:45.830
to a set of stakeholders that included customers,
1164
00:44:45.830 --> 00:44:46.663
suppliers,
1165
00:44:46.663 --> 00:44:47.496
employees,
1166
00:44:47.496 --> 00:44:49.720
the communities where employees lived.
1167
00:44:49.720 --> 00:44:54.050
That was the model that existed in the United States
1168
00:44:54.050 --> 00:44:56.606
from the second World War to 1981.
1169
00:44:56.606 --> 00:45:00.970
My simple point is that model encouraged
1170
00:45:00.970 --> 00:45:04.480
much better behavior and much longer term thinking.
1171
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.770
And so in the current situation again
1172
00:45:07.770 --> 00:45:09.100
I don't blame the people.
1173
00:45:09.100 --> 00:45:10.920
I think the culture we live in
1174
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:13.000
has encouraged this kind of behavior.
1175
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:14.848
And I think the question
1176
00:45:14.848 --> 00:45:17.160
is are we gonna reset our expectations?
1177
00:45:17.160 --> 00:45:20.052
Are we gonna rest the values
1178
00:45:20.052 --> 00:45:22.390
that we bring to these things?
1179
00:45:22.390 --> 00:45:24.410
Is it always about the almighty buck
1180
00:45:24.410 --> 00:45:26.730
or is making the world a better place actually
1181
00:45:26.730 --> 00:45:29.111
a value we'd like to pursue?
1182
00:45:29.111 --> 00:45:32.890
I don't wanna pretend that the Silicon Valley
1183
00:45:32.890 --> 00:45:34.470
of the eighties and nineties
1184
00:45:34.470 --> 00:45:36.680
was somehow this philanthropic thing.
1185
00:45:36.680 --> 00:45:37.999
It was not.
1186
00:45:37.999 --> 00:45:39.030
It was a money making enterprise.
1187
00:45:39.030 --> 00:45:42.551
But there was at least more sense than you have today
1188
00:45:42.551 --> 00:45:45.561
of the needs of other constituencies
1189
00:45:45.561 --> 00:45:48.580
and I would like to get back to that.
1190
00:45:48.580 --> 00:45:51.140
Is there more sense in 2019 than there was in 18?
1191
00:45:51.140 --> 00:45:52.100
Or than 2017?
1192
00:45:52.100 --> 00:45:53.510
Is the trend line in your view going
1193
00:45:53.510 --> 00:45:54.990
in the right direction or the wrong direction?
1194
00:45:54.990 --> 00:45:56.150
Right direction.
1195
00:45:56.150 --> 00:45:58.080
So a couple things.
1196
00:45:58.080 --> 00:45:59.828
I mean let me look backwards the 2018 election
1197
00:45:59.828 --> 00:46:03.730
was really interesting to me because there were three groups
1198
00:46:03.730 --> 00:46:07.140
that were successfully suppressed using micro-targeting
1199
00:46:07.140 --> 00:46:08.810
on Facebook and Instagram.
1200
00:46:08.810 --> 00:46:10.810
They were suburban white women,
1201
00:46:10.810 --> 00:46:11.990
people of color,
1202
00:46:11.990 --> 00:46:14.470
and idealistic young people.
1203
00:46:14.470 --> 00:46:16.820
The amount of disinformation in 2018 midterms
1204
00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:18.922
was wildly higher than 2016
1205
00:46:18.922 --> 00:46:22.200
and yet three groups in particular stood out
1206
00:46:22.200 --> 00:46:23.460
for turning out the turnout.
1207
00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:24.740
Increase in their turnout.
1208
00:46:24.740 --> 00:46:25.800
Suburban white women,
1209
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:26.633
people of color,
1210
00:46:26.633 --> 00:46:28.330
and idealistic young people.
1211
00:46:28.330 --> 00:46:32.350
And to me I think the country
1212
00:46:32.350 --> 00:46:35.010
is making a really important turn.
1213
00:46:35.010 --> 00:46:37.140
There have been at least five labor actions
1214
00:46:37.140 --> 00:46:39.150
by teacher's unions in the last year
1215
00:46:39.150 --> 00:46:41.100
that have been successful with no blow back.
1216
00:46:41.100 --> 00:46:43.270
You had the air traffic controllers
1217
00:46:43.270 --> 00:46:46.020
which with a sickout that lasted a few hours
1218
00:46:46.020 --> 00:46:48.000
into the government shutdown.
1219
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.860
I mean there's you know.
1220
00:46:50.860 --> 00:46:54.530
You're seeing is it Via which is going out getting
1221
00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:56.890
a lot of positive press for treating its drivers
1222
00:46:56.890 --> 00:46:59.400
better than Uber and Lyft?
1223
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:00.880
I just think that people are looking around
1224
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.210
and going hang on.
1225
00:47:02.210 --> 00:47:06.100
There are people living under bridges all over America.
1226
00:47:06.100 --> 00:47:08.040
Because we aren't taking care
1227
00:47:08.040 --> 00:47:09.410
of all the people who live here.
1228
00:47:09.410 --> 00:47:11.913
There are people in cages at the border.
1229
00:47:13.094 --> 00:47:14.390
Children separated from their parents.
1230
00:47:14.390 --> 00:47:15.670
I don't think that's the America
1231
00:47:15.670 --> 00:47:17.120
we all want to live in.
1232
00:47:17.120 --> 00:47:20.972
And my point is all these things are coming from you know
1233
00:47:20.972 --> 00:47:25.110
not bad intent so much as a loss of perspective
1234
00:47:25.110 --> 00:47:28.530
on all the different things that might matter in life.
1235
00:47:28.530 --> 00:47:29.750
And you and I have a common thing.
1236
00:47:29.750 --> 00:47:32.040
We've both had near death experiences.
1237
00:47:32.040 --> 00:47:34.280
And one of the things that happens after you've had that
1238
00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:37.070
is you look at things and maybe you value them differently.
1239
00:47:37.070 --> 00:47:39.580
And my point is I don't want to impose my value system
1240
00:47:39.580 --> 00:47:41.510
on anybody but I wanna give you a chance
1241
00:47:41.510 --> 00:47:44.040
to think about what really matters to you right?
1242
00:47:44.040 --> 00:47:46.160
Is money the only thing that matters to you?
1243
00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:47.690
'Cause look at how miserable some
1244
00:47:47.690 --> 00:47:48.750
of these really rich people are.
1245
00:47:48.750 --> 00:47:51.310
Look how many of these entrepreneurs are dying
1246
00:47:51.310 --> 00:47:53.910
at 35 or 40 from drug overdoses.
1247
00:47:53.910 --> 00:47:55.313
There's somethin' wrong.
1248
00:47:58.441 --> 00:48:01.441
[audience clapping]
1249
00:48:03.190 --> 00:48:05.282
Let's go to that because you're not only
1250
00:48:05.282 --> 00:48:09.490
an eloquent critic and an advisor to policy folks.
1251
00:48:09.490 --> 00:48:11.210
You also run the Center of Humane Technology
1252
00:48:11.210 --> 00:48:13.580
and you're trying to build out a new kind of technology.
1253
00:48:13.580 --> 00:48:16.060
Tell me where that organization is right now
1254
00:48:16.060 --> 00:48:17.690
and tell me what you're trying to make.
1255
00:48:17.690 --> 00:48:20.510
I am an advisor for the Center for Humane Technology.
1256
00:48:20.510 --> 00:48:23.060
Tristan Harris runs it and you know
1257
00:48:23.060 --> 00:48:24.970
the notion here is a very simple one.
1258
00:48:24.970 --> 00:48:27.160
We want to be a clearing house
1259
00:48:27.160 --> 00:48:30.190
so that people who want to use technology to build
1260
00:48:30.190 --> 00:48:32.500
a better world can meet, greet,
1261
00:48:32.500 --> 00:48:35.080
share ideas and get leverage.
1262
00:48:35.080 --> 00:48:37.378
And the thing that I would say
1263
00:48:37.378 --> 00:48:38.211
is that my real role is
1264
00:48:38.211 --> 00:48:40.270
to take those messages to Washington.
1265
00:48:40.270 --> 00:48:42.290
Take those messages to state houses.
1266
00:48:42.290 --> 00:48:43.310
Take them to Austin.
1267
00:48:43.310 --> 00:48:45.302
Yep exactly bring it to Austin.
1268
00:48:45.302 --> 00:48:49.253
The key thing here is you guys
1269
00:48:49.253 --> 00:48:53.640
my book is really about a journey.
1270
00:48:53.640 --> 00:48:56.700
In the book I am Jimmy Stewart in Rear Window right?
1271
00:48:56.700 --> 00:48:58.530
I see a crime scene.
1272
00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:00.290
I have no pardon my French.
1273
00:49:00.290 --> 00:49:02.103
Fuckin' idea what I've just seen.
1274
00:49:03.410 --> 00:49:05.450
And I pull on the thread.
1275
00:49:05.450 --> 00:49:09.035
I look back and I go Roger you ignorant slut.
1276
00:49:09.035 --> 00:49:10.886
[audience laughing]
1277
00:49:10.886 --> 00:49:15.290
How could you possibly have missed what waas goin' on?
1278
00:49:15.290 --> 00:49:18.030
But for whatever reason I did okay?
1279
00:49:18.030 --> 00:49:22.240
And in the book I take you on my intellectual journey.
1280
00:49:22.240 --> 00:49:25.140
The core point is not 'cause it's the cold story
1281
00:49:25.140 --> 00:49:27.650
because it's only chapter one of this bigger story.
1282
00:49:27.650 --> 00:49:29.257
What I've learned since is amazing.
1283
00:49:29.257 --> 00:49:32.470
The people I've met since are unbelievable.
1284
00:49:32.470 --> 00:49:33.850
I'm not the answer to this.
1285
00:49:33.850 --> 00:49:34.683
This isn't about me.
1286
00:49:34.683 --> 00:49:36.840
It's just I have a biography that gives me
1287
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:38.520
a chance to talk about this stuff
1288
00:49:38.520 --> 00:49:41.117
and expose everybody to all the brilliant people
1289
00:49:41.117 --> 00:49:43.020
who are doin' the real work.
1290
00:49:43.020 --> 00:49:44.340
People like Tristan.
1291
00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:46.190
People like Renee Diresta.
1292
00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:48.070
People like Sandy Parakilas.
1293
00:49:48.070 --> 00:49:51.100
People like Elizabeth Warren.
1294
00:49:51.100 --> 00:49:54.020
I mean I look at this and I go
1295
00:49:56.050 --> 00:49:58.210
the conversation has started Nick.
1296
00:49:58.210 --> 00:49:59.510
But what is humane technology?
1297
00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:01.020
I mean there are a lot of entrepreneurs.
1298
00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:01.853
They're developers,
1299
00:50:01.853 --> 00:50:03.132
they're engineers,
1300
00:50:03.132 --> 00:50:03.984
they are activists.
1301
00:50:03.984 --> 00:50:04.837
They are people building things.
1302
00:50:04.837 --> 00:50:05.670
What in your mind is humane technology?
1303
00:50:05.670 --> 00:50:07.170
I just think it's about
1304
00:50:07.170 --> 00:50:09.690
it's going back to Steve Jobs' vision
1305
00:50:09.690 --> 00:50:11.350
of bicycles for the mind.
1306
00:50:11.350 --> 00:50:14.710
It's this notion that technology should empower us.
1307
00:50:14.710 --> 00:50:18.040
My problem with Google you know let Google do it
1308
00:50:18.040 --> 00:50:20.980
is that AI is being applied right now
1309
00:50:20.980 --> 00:50:22.720
to three broad categories.
1310
00:50:22.720 --> 00:50:24.060
Eliminating work.
1311
00:50:24.060 --> 00:50:25.840
White collar work.
1312
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:27.770
Filter bubbles.
1313
00:50:27.770 --> 00:50:30.660
And recommendation engines.
1314
00:50:30.660 --> 00:50:32.360
In short your job,
1315
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:33.317
what you believe,
1316
00:50:33.317 --> 00:50:34.940
and the things you like.
1317
00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:36.440
I'm sittin' there goin' I'm sorry.
1318
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.550
But the thing that makes Nick different from me.
1319
00:50:38.550 --> 00:50:40.920
Whatever the list of top 10 things are.
1320
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:42.050
Our work.
1321
00:50:42.050 --> 00:50:43.490
The things we believe
1322
00:50:44.784 --> 00:50:45.850
and the things that we enjoy and purchase
1323
00:50:45.850 --> 00:50:48.200
are right near the top.
1324
00:50:48.200 --> 00:50:51.740
I don't wanna delegate that to somebody's AI.
1325
00:50:51.740 --> 00:50:54.110
And I'm really bothered by the fact
1326
00:50:54.110 --> 00:50:56.080
that we're making all these AIs
1327
00:50:56.080 --> 00:50:59.000
and inheriting the implicit bias of the real world.
1328
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:01.950
That you get recruiting apps that review resumes
1329
00:51:01.950 --> 00:51:04.090
that are biased against women and people of color.
1330
00:51:04.090 --> 00:51:07.590
That you get red lining built into mortgage applications.
1331
00:51:07.590 --> 00:51:09.570
That you can't recognize people of color
1332
00:51:09.570 --> 00:51:11.320
in a facial recognition.
1333
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.670
And the part that bothers me more than anything
1334
00:51:14.629 --> 00:51:16.620
is that as humans we trust technology to be neutral.
1335
00:51:16.620 --> 00:51:19.040
So it's entirely possible that the people buying
1336
00:51:19.040 --> 00:51:21.126
this stuff are buying it explicitly
1337
00:51:21.126 --> 00:51:25.940
to protect themselves against the accusation of bias.
1338
00:51:25.940 --> 00:51:27.940
That if you are a tech company you like having
1339
00:51:27.940 --> 00:51:29.958
white and Asian males between 25 and 35.
1340
00:51:29.958 --> 00:51:33.430
Having an AI sorting through your resumes
1341
00:51:33.430 --> 00:51:35.443
is very convenient.
1342
00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:38.480
I want to go to AI.
1343
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:39.810
Who are the people investing in alternative future?
1344
00:51:39.810 --> 00:51:41.263
What is a specific example of something
1345
00:51:41.263 --> 00:51:43.993
that you would call humane technology?
1346
00:51:43.993 --> 00:51:46.227
I'm waiting to see it.
1347
00:51:46.227 --> 00:51:47.700
'Cause I'm not investing now.
1348
00:51:47.700 --> 00:51:49.980
Now I'm mostly in this mode.
1349
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:52.020
I'm sure there's a lot of stuff out there.
1350
00:51:52.020 --> 00:51:53.580
I'm not seeing much of it
1351
00:51:53.580 --> 00:51:56.170
because I don't have the bandwidth to do it right now.
1352
00:51:56.170 --> 00:51:57.573
What I would observe though.
1353
00:51:59.170 --> 00:52:00.706
Let's look at one really obvious example
1354
00:52:00.706 --> 00:52:02.290
we all know which is Apple.
1355
00:52:02.290 --> 00:52:03.890
So Apple is not perfect right?
1356
00:52:03.890 --> 00:52:05.560
There's a bunch of stuff they do badly.
1357
00:52:05.560 --> 00:52:09.211
Their supply chain in China scares the crap out of me.
1358
00:52:09.211 --> 00:52:10.044
A lot of stuff in China.
1359
00:52:10.044 --> 00:52:10.877
Right there's a lot of things
1360
00:52:10.877 --> 00:52:11.820
I don't like about what they do.
1361
00:52:11.820 --> 00:52:14.430
But what they are doing around protecting
1362
00:52:14.430 --> 00:52:18.028
personal privacy is really important.
1363
00:52:18.028 --> 00:52:20.210
What they did after San Bernadino.
1364
00:52:20.210 --> 00:52:21.690
Calling the FBI's bluff.
1365
00:52:21.690 --> 00:52:23.750
Going come on guys you can open this phone.
1366
00:52:23.750 --> 00:52:25.970
We're just not puttin' a back into it right?
1367
00:52:25.970 --> 00:52:28.509
But that was really risky.
1368
00:52:28.509 --> 00:52:29.573
Politically.
1369
00:52:30.410 --> 00:52:32.190
Shutting down Google and Facebook
1370
00:52:32.190 --> 00:52:34.584
for a day over the research apps.
1371
00:52:34.584 --> 00:52:37.820
That is not a riskless transaction for them.
1372
00:52:37.820 --> 00:52:41.150
And my simple point is Apple's a big company.
1373
00:52:41.150 --> 00:52:44.700
I was not expecting them to take any risk on stuff at all
1374
00:52:44.700 --> 00:52:46.360
and I'm happy they're doing so.
1375
00:52:46.360 --> 00:52:48.528
And I look at this today and if you have an Android
1376
00:52:48.528 --> 00:52:51.050
you really gotta ask yourself.
1377
00:52:51.050 --> 00:52:53.714
I mean why?
1378
00:52:53.714 --> 00:52:57.268
[audience laughing]
1379
00:52:57.268 --> 00:52:59.890
I get that the camera is better okay?
1380
00:52:59.890 --> 00:53:02.500
But take the SIM card out right?
1381
00:53:02.500 --> 00:53:04.010
If you want the camera God bless.
1382
00:53:04.010 --> 00:53:07.160
But seriously I mean why would you
1383
00:53:07.160 --> 00:53:08.670
open yourself up and walk.
1384
00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:10.280
I mean you're basically taking your data
1385
00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:12.200
and handing it out to everybody you meet.
1386
00:53:12.200 --> 00:53:13.033
It's nuts.
1387
00:53:13.033 --> 00:53:14.436
You're gonna end up.
1388
00:53:14.436 --> 00:53:15.269
That little clip is gonna appear on
1389
00:53:15.269 --> 00:53:17.578
an Apple keynote speech sometime in the next three months.
1390
00:53:17.578 --> 00:53:18.490
[audience laughing]
1391
00:53:18.490 --> 00:53:20.310
Please I hope the cameras were turned off then.
1392
00:53:20.310 --> 00:53:23.110
All right let's ask this is a very big
1393
00:53:23.110 --> 00:53:24.600
important question from the audience.
1394
00:53:24.600 --> 00:53:26.040
All things considered do you think Facebook
1395
00:53:26.040 --> 00:53:28.929
has been a net positive or a net negative?
1396
00:53:28.929 --> 00:53:32.023
Five minutes left let's do it Roger.
1397
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.895
I'm gonna do it in two words.
1398
00:53:34.895 --> 00:53:35.728
Net negative.
1399
00:53:35.728 --> 00:53:37.143
Okay let's change it.
1400
00:53:38.669 --> 00:53:39.502
Do you think that over the next 10 years Facebook
1401
00:53:39.502 --> 00:53:41.320
will be a net positive or a net negative?
1402
00:53:41.320 --> 00:53:42.800
I think they can control that.
1403
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:43.633
I don't know.
1404
00:53:43.633 --> 00:53:45.350
I would like to think they could be a net positive.
1405
00:53:45.350 --> 00:53:47.190
They have to change their business model.
1406
00:53:47.190 --> 00:53:48.260
But everybody seriously.
1407
00:53:48.260 --> 00:53:49.690
Do they have to change the?
1408
00:53:49.690 --> 00:53:50.890
I don't think they can keep
1409
00:53:50.890 --> 00:53:53.190
their current business model and be a net positive.
1410
00:53:53.190 --> 00:53:54.023
You don't think you can just change
1411
00:53:54.023 --> 00:53:56.150
the math of news feed the way privacy settings work
1412
00:53:56.150 --> 00:53:58.300
and all the other things with the same business model.
1413
00:53:58.300 --> 00:53:59.930
Have it be a less successful business model
1414
00:53:59.930 --> 00:54:01.896
but different core structure.
1415
00:54:01.896 --> 00:54:03.500
Sorry I call that changing the business model.
1416
00:54:03.500 --> 00:54:04.938
Okay.
1417
00:54:04.938 --> 00:54:05.810
So here's the thing.
1418
00:54:05.810 --> 00:54:08.531
I am much more worried today about Google,
1419
00:54:08.531 --> 00:54:09.850
Amazon,
1420
00:54:09.850 --> 00:54:12.820
Microsoft than I am about Facebook.
1421
00:54:12.820 --> 00:54:16.690
Because Facebook has been clumsy enough
1422
00:54:16.690 --> 00:54:19.574
to have been caught and they're on the defensive.
1423
00:54:19.574 --> 00:54:23.053
The other guys have been much more clever.
1424
00:54:24.561 --> 00:54:29.561
My point is Facebook Portal got shut down on like day one.
1425
00:54:30.940 --> 00:54:33.730
Whereas Amazon and the various Google products
1426
00:54:33.730 --> 00:54:36.540
that are in the smart device complex.
1427
00:54:36.540 --> 00:54:38.300
I mean they're taking surveillance
1428
00:54:38.300 --> 00:54:40.050
into places it doesn't belong.
1429
00:54:40.050 --> 00:54:41.070
Well look we've hammered Facebook.
1430
00:54:41.070 --> 00:54:41.903
We've hammered Google.
1431
00:54:41.903 --> 00:54:43.870
Let's hammer Amazon and Microsoft for a little bit.
1432
00:54:43.870 --> 00:54:46.860
What are the worst offenses of Microsoft?
1433
00:54:46.860 --> 00:54:48.650
Well Microsoft you know they have
1434
00:54:49.893 --> 00:54:52.631
a relatively lame product in Bing right?
1435
00:54:52.631 --> 00:54:54.010
[audience laughing]
1436
00:54:54.010 --> 00:54:56.700
But they have an absolutely market dominant product
1437
00:54:56.700 --> 00:54:59.510
in LinkedIn that is I'm sure everybody in this room
1438
00:54:59.510 --> 00:55:01.607
but me is on LinkedIn.
1439
00:55:01.607 --> 00:55:04.420
They are simply siphoning off all
1440
00:55:04.420 --> 00:55:06.510
of your behavioral prediction
1441
00:55:06.510 --> 00:55:08.730
what they would call digital exhaust.
1442
00:55:08.730 --> 00:55:11.308
Which really digital solid gold.
1443
00:55:11.308 --> 00:55:15.620
They then have this giant AI operation right
1444
00:55:15.620 --> 00:55:20.610
so that they can if you will influence the outcome relative
1445
00:55:20.610 --> 00:55:23.470
to the behavioral predictions to make them more valuable.
1446
00:55:23.470 --> 00:55:25.170
And you can see it in their numbers.
1447
00:55:25.170 --> 00:55:27.160
Their numbers have just gone completely bananas
1448
00:55:27.160 --> 00:55:28.630
and this is why.
1449
00:55:28.630 --> 00:55:30.231
What social harm is it?
1450
00:55:30.231 --> 00:55:31.750
It's not because of tell me it's a word.
1451
00:55:31.750 --> 00:55:32.583
Well wait.
1452
00:55:32.583 --> 00:55:34.240
This conversation is going in the direction
1453
00:55:34.240 --> 00:55:35.240
I did not expect.
1454
00:55:35.240 --> 00:55:37.382
Tell me the social harm done by LinkedIn.
1455
00:55:37.382 --> 00:55:40.130
It's not LinkedIn per se.
1456
00:55:40.130 --> 00:55:43.270
It's what they're doing with the,
1457
00:55:43.270 --> 00:55:46.270
it's this notion of surveillance
1458
00:55:46.270 --> 00:55:49.940
and creating a market of behavioral prediction based
1459
00:55:49.940 --> 00:55:52.390
on our most private things okay?
1460
00:55:52.390 --> 00:55:54.820
So it's this notion that when you're on these platforms
1461
00:55:54.820 --> 00:55:56.910
nothing you do is private.
1462
00:55:56.910 --> 00:55:58.950
Everything you do is being turned in
1463
00:55:58.950 --> 00:56:03.950
to a monetizable unit and sold to the highest bidder.
1464
00:56:04.710 --> 00:56:06.930
And I'm sittin' there goin' look maybe all you guys
1465
00:56:06.930 --> 00:56:10.960
have better control of everything you do online than I do.
1466
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:12.960
But I'm just I'm sittin' there goin' look
1467
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.330
I wanna have a conversation about where the limits are.
1468
00:56:15.330 --> 00:56:18.680
And again it may be that there's no harm being done
1469
00:56:18.680 --> 00:56:21.260
but there's nothing to prevent harm from being done
1470
00:56:21.260 --> 00:56:23.900
and that's the part that scares me.
1471
00:56:23.900 --> 00:56:25.290
There's no limits right now
1472
00:56:25.290 --> 00:56:26.800
to what you can do with that data.
1473
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:28.140
Let me give you the example.
1474
00:56:28.140 --> 00:56:29.870
Everybody here use Captcha right?
1475
00:56:29.870 --> 00:56:32.240
You're in there they wanna find out if you're a robot right?
1476
00:56:32.240 --> 00:56:35.240
And then you have to look at those pictures right?
1477
00:56:35.240 --> 00:56:38.770
Identify the cars or the stop signs.
1478
00:56:38.770 --> 00:56:41.500
Obviously Google doesn't need that
1479
00:56:41.500 --> 00:56:42.780
to figure out you're a human.
1480
00:56:42.780 --> 00:56:44.450
They do that so that you're training
1481
00:56:44.450 --> 00:56:46.780
the AI for their self driving cars.
1482
00:56:46.780 --> 00:56:50.320
They figure out you're a human based on your mouse movement.
1483
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:53.180
All of these guys are tracking your mouse movement.
1484
00:56:53.180 --> 00:56:55.180
Now let's roll it forward.
1485
00:56:55.180 --> 00:56:57.680
All of a sudden the first day that you have
1486
00:56:57.680 --> 00:57:00.450
a symptom of a neurological disease.
1487
00:57:00.450 --> 00:57:02.300
Let's say Parkinson's.
1488
00:57:02.300 --> 00:57:04.690
Or something more severe.
1489
00:57:04.690 --> 00:57:07.070
Now in the current regime they have
1490
00:57:07.070 --> 00:57:10.190
no obligation to inform you.
1491
00:57:10.190 --> 00:57:12.060
They have no obligation to protect
1492
00:57:12.060 --> 00:57:15.490
the privacy of that medical diagnosis.
1493
00:57:15.490 --> 00:57:17.110
All of the incentives are to sell it
1494
00:57:17.110 --> 00:57:18.830
to the highest bidder.
1495
00:57:18.830 --> 00:57:20.340
And I would argue the highest bidder
1496
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:21.890
in the United States of America
1497
00:57:22.765 --> 00:57:24.270
is likely to be your insurance company.
1498
00:57:24.270 --> 00:57:25.520
So they can either get rid of your insurance
1499
00:57:25.520 --> 00:57:26.630
or raise your rates
1500
00:57:26.630 --> 00:57:29.560
and they can do all that before you even know you're sick.
1501
00:57:29.560 --> 00:57:32.370
So is the solution to stop the mouse tracking
1502
00:57:32.370 --> 00:57:33.650
so that they don't have the data
1503
00:57:33.650 --> 00:57:36.198
or is it to regulate the way they use the data
1504
00:57:36.198 --> 00:57:37.031
so they tell you have Parkinson's?
1505
00:57:37.031 --> 00:57:38.770
I think they should have to tell you
1506
00:57:38.770 --> 00:57:40.860
and I think they should have to keep it private.
1507
00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:42.400
I think it should be HIPPA governed.
1508
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:44.539
So then it's collecting the data.
1509
00:57:44.539 --> 00:57:46.020
No I actually believe that this is a great application.
1510
00:57:46.020 --> 00:57:47.731
Yeah that's what I'm saying.
1511
00:57:47.731 --> 00:57:49.530
I'm sitting there and saying I would be willing
1512
00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:51.240
to pay some serious money to have that diagnosis.
1513
00:57:51.240 --> 00:57:53.248
It's a medical diagnosis and if it's accurate
1514
00:57:53.248 --> 00:57:54.880
it's worth money.
1515
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:56.624
But my point here is right now again
1516
00:57:56.624 --> 00:57:58.710
this is why we have to have a conversation.
1517
00:57:58.710 --> 00:58:01.330
This isn't like maybe sometime in 10 years.
1518
00:58:01.330 --> 00:58:03.230
They could probably do this now.
1519
00:58:03.230 --> 00:58:05.560
And I just look at it and go
1520
00:58:05.560 --> 00:58:08.520
I would like to have some thought
1521
00:58:08.520 --> 00:58:11.670
that I'm not competing against these behemoths every time
1522
00:58:11.670 --> 00:58:13.313
I move my mouse.
1523
00:58:14.358 --> 00:58:16.901
All right last question
1524
00:58:16.901 --> 00:58:18.439
from the audience since we're almost out of time.
1525
00:58:18.439 --> 00:58:19.277
Do you think Mark should step down as CEO?
1526
00:58:19.277 --> 00:58:20.129
No.
1527
00:58:20.129 --> 00:58:21.286
No I don't think so.
1528
00:58:21.286 --> 00:58:22.613
I don't think this is about the people
1529
00:58:22.613 --> 00:58:25.163
and I believe that this is about the business model
1530
00:58:26.216 --> 00:58:27.730
and Larry and Sergey at Google.
1531
00:58:27.730 --> 00:58:29.460
Mark and Sheryl at Facebook
1532
00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:32.010
have the moral authority to change the business model.
1533
00:58:32.010 --> 00:58:33.530
If you don't change the business model
1534
00:58:33.530 --> 00:58:35.780
it doesn't matter who's running it.
1535
00:58:35.780 --> 00:58:37.790
And if you do change the business model
1536
00:58:37.790 --> 00:58:40.161
it's okay whoever's running it.
1537
00:58:40.161 --> 00:58:41.460
And so I don't believe that's the right answer.
1538
00:58:41.460 --> 00:58:43.600
I think that's kind of a knee jerk response
1539
00:58:43.600 --> 00:58:45.630
and I wouldn't go that way.
1540
00:58:45.630 --> 00:58:47.010
I have too much respect for Mark.
1541
00:58:47.010 --> 00:58:48.070
Too much respect for Sheryl.
1542
00:58:48.070 --> 00:58:49.617
Too much respect for Larry and Sergey.
1543
00:58:49.617 --> 00:58:51.763
I think what I want to do is I believe
1544
00:58:51.763 --> 00:58:56.763
they are one good night's sleep away from the epiphany.
1545
00:58:57.124 --> 00:58:59.892
[audience laughing]
1546
00:58:59.892 --> 00:59:00.837
Hang on.
1547
00:59:00.837 --> 00:59:01.708
Hang on this is actually serious.
1548
00:59:01.708 --> 00:59:02.753
We're running out of time but this is serious.
1549
00:59:03.991 --> 00:59:04.824
They can do 100 times as much good
1550
00:59:04.824 --> 00:59:07.264
by reforming their companies
1551
00:59:07.264 --> 00:59:11.040
as they could possibly do with a foundation.
1552
00:59:11.040 --> 00:59:13.089
And I want them to look at it that way.
1553
00:59:13.089 --> 00:59:14.410
[audience clapping]
1554
00:59:14.410 --> 00:59:15.243
All right.
1555
00:59:19.010 --> 00:59:20.270
That is the perfect note to end on.
1556
00:59:20.270 --> 00:59:22.040
I hope that however they reform their business model
1557
00:59:22.040 --> 00:59:24.710
they still allow Roger to sell books through the ad product.
1558
00:59:24.710 --> 00:59:26.900
Thank you for all the amazing questions.
1559
00:59:26.900 --> 00:59:27.733
Thank you for coming.
1560
00:59:27.733 --> 00:59:29.572
Thank you for being a great audience
1561
00:59:29.572 --> 00:59:30.642
and thank you so much Roger that was really something.
1562
00:59:30.642 --> 00:59:32.116
Thank you so much.
1563
00:59:32.116 --> 00:59:33.572
[audience clapping]