WEBVTT

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[ding]

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<v ->The first time I ever finished</v>

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a Saturday crossword,

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I was, like, at a beach house with friends

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and we had no internet

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and we wouldn't have been able to do it

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unless we had collectivized the stuff we knew.

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<v ->And there are some people who would've</v>

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just gone to the beach at that point.

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<v ->Yeah, that wasn't us.</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>

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[upbeat music]

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<v ->I'm here with Natan Last,</v>

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who is one of the New Yorker crossword constructors.

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So Natan, you work for the International Rescue Committee.

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<v ->Yeah, that's right. Yeah.</v>

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It's a large international non-profit

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that focuses on refugee resettlement.

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<v ->Is there any overlap between</v>

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your day job and your night job?

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<v ->I used to see it as a sort of diversion.</v>

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I think more and more it is about

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putting words, nouns, communities, even languages

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in puzzles that you don't often see.

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I want to see those things represented in puzzles

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because those are the idioms I'm speaking in.

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Those are the communities I'm traveling in.

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<v ->To give a sense of your voice,</v>

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I am going to read some clues from your recent puzzles

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and then you can tell me the answer.

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<v ->I'm ready.</v>

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<v ->Okay.</v>

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Economic slash environmental-justice proposal

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championed by A.O.C.

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12 letters.

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<v ->Nice, so it's Green New Deal.</v>

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[ding]
<v ->Yeah, okay.</v>

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Often unfairly feminized work, 14 letters.

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<v ->Yeah, so this would be emotional labor.</v>

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[ding]
<v ->Yes, okay.</v>

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Campaign sparked by Tarana Burke, 13 letters.

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<v ->So, Me too Movement.</v>

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[ding]
<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->Yeah, without the hashtag.</v>

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<v ->Without the hashtag.</v>

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Work program championed by Coretta Scott King, 12 letters.

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<v ->Mm-hmm.</v>

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That's the job guarantee.

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[ding]
<v ->You got it.</v>

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So when you put something like job guarantee into a grid,

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you're not advocating for it, right?

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Does it still carry political weight?

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<v ->Just talking about it makes it,</v>

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shifts the idea of what's possible.

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I think that that's not the kind of entry

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that would have flown in lots of different outlets,

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five, ten years ago but-

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<v ->Now it feels like you can expect enough people to know</v>

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about these keywords of millennial socialism.

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I think of you as someone who often

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has 15 character words in a grid.

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The standard crossword grid is

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15 by 15 squares, right?
<v ->Yeah, exactly.</v>

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I think a lot of constructors keep,

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like, a kind of seed entry list

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so, you know,

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answers that we read about in the paper

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that people are talking about

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that we really want to see represented in the puzzle

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and so sunrise movement, you know,

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Elizabeth Warren, also 15 letters,

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these are answers that it's fun to have in your back pocket.

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So we have a puzzle coming up with

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Colin Kaepernick over Flannery O'Connor.

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<v ->Which we were, we were shipping them.</v>

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<v ->We were shipping them.</v>

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<v ->As a historical-</v>
<v ->I think they'd be great.</v>

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<v ->A trans historical couple.</v>

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<v ->They'd be good for each other.</v>

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I think.
<v ->Yes.</v>

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You are also a musician.

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<v ->I am a musician.</v>

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<v ->A drummer no less.</v>
<v ->We were both drummers.</v>

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<v ->From one drummer to the next,</v>

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does being a drummer help you as a crossword constructor?

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<v ->I think it, I think it definitely does.</v>

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So clues need to have a certain rhythm.

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I think of long clues next to short clues.

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It's really fun to repeat things.

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<v ->It sounds like you would say</v>

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puzzle making is a form of art.

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<v ->Yeah, yeah.</v>

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I'll say it.

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<v ->You'll say, you're going on record.</v>

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<v ->I'll say it. [laughs]</v>

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<v ->This reminds me of this phrase you often hear</v>

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in the puzzling world,

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which is the breakfast test.

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<v ->Right.</v>

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You've got this vivid image of someone opening the puzzle.

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<v ->Look Joel!</v>

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<v ->With their Sunday morning coffee,</v>

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eating their toast,

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whatever they're eating these days,

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drinking their soylent

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and just being shocked by something that

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is too bodily,

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too Maudlin

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but I think the breakfast test,

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it's sort of shifted as we've become

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more comfortable talking about sex,

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talking about bodily functions,

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talking about war

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and some of our updating of clues has lagged behind.

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You'll always see IED before you see IUD.

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<v ->So have you ever had any clues in your puzzles</v>

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that you think would not pass a breakfast test?

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<v ->It depends who's eating breakfast.</v>

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<v ->On with your breakfast, John,</v>

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or I'll clear it away.

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I had polyamory in a puzzle

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so it could be a very big breakfast.

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<v ->That was one of the all time great clues.</v>

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<v ->We should look it up.</v>

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<v ->Love going to a lot of different parties.</v>

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<v ->Love going a lot of different parties.</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->Polyamory.</v>

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<v ->Do you remember when you put She Bop in a puzzle?</v>

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<v ->Yes, I do remember that.</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

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<v ->Cyndi Lauper hit about masturbation?</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>

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♪ In the pages of blue boy magazine ♪

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<v ->We're gonna do a round of live cluing.</v>

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I'm gonna read you a rapid fire list

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and you're gonna give me an easy

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and a hard clue for each word.

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<v ->Okay, let's do it.</v>

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<v ->Are you ready?</v>

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<v ->Yeah, I think so.</v>

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<v ->Okay. First word.</v>

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Swing.

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<v ->An easy clue for swing could be something like,</v>

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"Kind of state."

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Just straightforward.

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Let them hit it outta the park.

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A hard clue for swing,

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something cheeky like, "turn red, perhaps?"

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[mumbles]

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<v ->I love that.</v>

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<v ->That work?</v>

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<v ->That' so good.</v>

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'Cause it could be like a blushing...

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Oh my God.

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Is blush the same number of letters as

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swing?
<v ->It is. It is.</v>

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It's devilish.

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<v ->That is Machiavellian.</v>

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<v ->Next word. Russian.</v>

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<v ->[sighs] Russia.</v>

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So an easy clue for Russia could be

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nation Churchill referred to as

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a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

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<v ->Wow.</v>

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So many layers.

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<v ->So many layers.</v>

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That's my new Tinder bio.

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<v ->[laughs] You're gonna get a lot of weirdos.</v>

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<v ->Yeah, I hope so. [laughs]</v>

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[ding]

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<v ->What about the hard clue?</v>

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<v ->Okay, so I have another stretchy one for you.</v>

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<v ->Okay.</v>

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<v ->Modern gate-opener.</v>

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Russia-gate.
<v ->Russia-gate.</v>

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<v ->Does it work?</v>

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Survey says?

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[buzz]

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That hate it.

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<v ->Next one, relevant.</v>

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Warren.

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<v ->Warren.</v>

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So for easy, we could be straightforward.

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You know,

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wonkish populist in the 2020 Democratic primary.

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<v ->She is wonkish.</v>

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<v ->She's super wonkish.</v>

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[ding]

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The way to get at Warren in a tougher way

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and a more sidelong way would be,

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"She spearheaded the creation

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of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

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<v ->And you could also do the alternative meaning.</v>

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<v ->Yeah, rabbit's home.</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>

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<v ->A little interconnected maze of rabbit homes.</v>

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<v ->Right.</v>

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There should be like an Elizabeth Warren like Warren Plan.

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It's like, social housing that's a bunch

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of interconnected rabbit homes.

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<v Liz>Love it.</v>

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<v ->But paid by taxpayers.</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v Natan>It'd be great.</v>

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<v ->And no student debt.</v>

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<v Natan>No student debt.</v>
[dings]

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<v ->Next word. Brexit.</v>

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<v ->Brexit, yeah.</v>

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And easy clue might be,

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part of the reason for Theresa May's resignation.

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For a hard clue, I was trying to do

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something that played on both Brangelina,

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like, realms.
<v ->Right, right.</v>

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The, what do we call that?

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<v ->Portmanteau.</v>
<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->So many there's a Brexit clue with portmanteau.</v>

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So like, portmanteau for a famous uncoupling.

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<v ->[gasps] That's so good.</v>

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<v ->Does that work?</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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Okay.

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One more.

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<v Natan>Okay.</v>

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<v Liz>Primary.</v>

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<v ->So an easy clue for primary could be</v>

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"The Democratic 2020 one has more than twenty ones,"

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Or something like that.

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More than...

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<v ->Wow.</v>

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<v Candidates>I'm running for President.</v>

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<v ->All right.</v>

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Are you ready for the extreme groaner?

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->It's really, really bad.</v>

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Sing, "It's my party and I'll vie if I want to."

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<v ->No.</v>

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<v ->We'll cut that.</v>

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<v ->Lose it. Take it back.</v>

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<v ->It's so fun though.</v>

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And then we'll play the music
<v ->It's my party</v>

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and I'll vie if I want to.

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<v ->'Cause that's fun is what I'm,</v>

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is what I'm-

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<v ->You're just trying to have fun.</v>

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<v ->Girls just wanna have fun.</v>

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<v ->Yeah.</v>

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<v ->Right here, right now.</v>

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<v ->Okay.</v>

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<v ->In electoral politics.</v>

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<v ->That's not Cyndi Lauper.</v>

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<v ->That's right.</v>

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We'll-
<v ->Is it?</v>

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<v ->Yeah, we'll fix that in post.</v>

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[upbeat pop music]