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Please welcome Chris Cox with Lauren Goode.
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[upbeat music]
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Chris, thank you so much for being here.
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Thank you.
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And thanks to everybody for being here as well.
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Let's talk about Facebook.
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All right.
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All right.
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Let's just get right into it.
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I've heard about it.
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Yes, you've heard about it.
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Uh, you're wearing Facebook colors too.
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I guess so.
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I don't know if that was intentional, but.
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Yeah, so you left Facebook as Chief Product Officer
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several months ago now, I think it was March.
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Yep.
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Of this year and interestingly, the year before that,
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before you left, you had just been promoted to run
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product at not only Facebook but also, WhatsApp, Instagram
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and Messenger.
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So you were really, like, you
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were running the product show there.
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That's 4 of the 6 core apps of the company.
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And then you left.
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How are you thinking about Facebook
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as a platform right now,
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now that you've had several months away from working there?
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Yeah well, there's my personal experience.
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I was there for 13 years so I started there when I was 23.
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I was the, I think the 13th engineer.
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And so it's intertwined with my whole like 20s
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and a lot of my 30s,
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with the experience of growing up with the company.
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And then there's all the people.
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I miss a lot of the people there, I miss,
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some days I miss the intensity of the work,
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some days I don't.
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At least for, you know, part of the reason I was okay
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leaving was having after 2016
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spent a couple of years
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building out a bunch of the teams
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that I felt were most important.
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To sort of take the lessons that we learned
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through some of 2016 and start to put in place
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institutions that could help the company
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be more responsible and be a better communicator
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on some of the key issues.
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The misinformation team, I know that's a hot topic right now
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I'd be delighted to spend 40 minutes on that.
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As well as the team focused on protecting elections,
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which is called the Elections Integrity team.
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As well as the team focused on at-risk countries,
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which is countries where there's more potent risk
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of real-world harm,
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because of the use of social media.
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And so, each of these teams set about forming partnerships
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with NGOs with good leaders.
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Building up people who cared about working on those things.
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Building ways of measuring progress against the problem.
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And ultimately sort of changing the institution.
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It's obviously not done.
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But you felt like it was
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in a good enough place for you to.
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I felt that the teams were absolutely in a place
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where they were going to do a great job
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with or without me.
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So it's been suggested and reported
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that part of the reason why you left is that,
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basically, throughout the time from when
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you were first promoted to run product
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at all over all of these product categories,
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and the time that you left
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was also around the time that CEO Mark Zuckerberg
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started to talk more about the future of social networks
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being private, more private.
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And talking about unifying backend systems
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and end-to-end encryption.
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And it's been suggested that philosophically there might
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have been a difference in how you felt
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versus how he felt the future of the company.
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You know, where things were going.
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Would you say that's an accurate characterization?
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Yeah, I mean it was true both that
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I had been there 13 years
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and it wasn't something where I felt I wanted
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to spend another 13 years on social media.
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And also that, you know, as Mark and I both said,
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we saw things a little bit differently.
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And then those two things combined
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to help me, you know, make that decision.
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And we made that decision together.
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We spent a long time figuring out
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what was the right timing for that
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and what was the right moment so.
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How would you characterize how you're feeling
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about things like encryption for example?
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Encryption's been a big topic here so far this morning.
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Yeah.
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And I think we're going to continue to talk about it.
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Yep.
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I mean, I think it's great.
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I think.
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You think encryption's great?
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I do.
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Okay.
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I think it offers an enormous amount of protection.
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I think we are still investigating, we as an industry,
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how do you balance protecting the privacy
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of people's information and continue to keep people safe.
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There's not a short answer to that question,
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but there I think is a bunch of really important research
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happening on that question,
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which will be, I think a lot of the important work
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that these companies do.
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How do you think a platform like Facebook
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squares encryption with some of the things
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that you were working on,
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filter bubbles, hate speech, misinformation?
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Some of that, the latter categories seems to require
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things being a little bit more out in the open.
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And encryption of course means you're providing
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a certain layer of protection and privacy for people.
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Yep.
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How do your beliefs about encryption square with
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the kind of products you were working on?
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I mean it certainly makes some
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of those things more complicated.
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I think in a messaging system,
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there's a much higher expectation of privacy
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which is totally legit.
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And there's also, at least on WhatsApp,
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we did some work that,
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I think some of the WhatsApp folks are here,
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we did some work to try and understand
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how you could combat misinformation
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in an encrypted environment.
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And I think we did some very good work.
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Some of it was public education.
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So just doing digital literacy campaigns
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in India and Brazil prior to elections.
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Some of it was building message forwarding systems
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so that people could connect with fact checkers
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and then could speak to groups
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that they were in about what they were seeing.
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So I think there's a different toolkit than the toolkit
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that you had used in a public feed system
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where you can just start to see what goes viral
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and for anything that looks like it's gonna go viral,
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you send it to a fact checker.
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I think there are pros and cons with these systems
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and I'm not a hardliner on any one of them.
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And I think the decisions the company's
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making on encryption and privacy
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come from a place that is resonate with what people want.
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Which I appreciate.
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Interesting, okay.
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I want to get to, eventually,
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what you're going to be doing next.
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Okay.
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But I do have more questions about Facebook.
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Sure.
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So, political advertising.
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Yes.
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This is something that's been in the news
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a lot over the past couple of weeks.
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Facebook has taken a bit of a hard line on
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political advertising, excuse me, Twitter has taken
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more of a hard line on political advertising
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on it's platform whereas Facebook has said
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it's going to allow political advertising
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even if those ads may contain untruths.
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And Mark Zuckerberg has spoken a lot about this
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just yesterday, I should add,
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Facebook's Chief Policy Officer, Nick Clegg
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actually said that they're going to be looking at things
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like micro-targeting a little more carefully and so.
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Like how do you feel Facebook
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is actually handling this right now?
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Is this the right approach?
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Well I think what Mark and Nick
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said in the last couple of days
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was they're looking at ways to adopt
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some of what was suggested in the employee letter,
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a lot of which I agree with.
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While still taking the stand, which is,
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we think political advertising can be good and helpful.
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It often favors up-and-comers versus incumbents
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I think more often than not, which is important.
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If you look at the democratic field,
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you have a lot of folks who needed a way to find a platform
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that didn't quite have one yet
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and that creates diversity which I think is good.
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They're used a lot in local elections,
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which I think is important and is tied up
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in the question of micro-targeting by the way.
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And then they're adjacent to issue ads.
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Which are ads about a list of 23 issues which are political.
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So you have, if you wanna talk to people about gun control
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or climate change or immigration reform
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or women's rights issues, those are all political
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even the NFL, as they say
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is the last thing that wasn't political is now political.
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And so, I think there's good rationale for supporting these
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in a system that is designed to help people reach
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the community of people that wanna hear from them.
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And I stand behind that.
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Well what's interesting is it seems that you are
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a proponent of fact checking in general
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we've talked about this.
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I'm a big fan.
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You're a big fan of fact checking, we are too at Wired.
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And so you're a proponent of fact checking,
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you've said this in earlier interviews,
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you've just said it, in this interview,
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and yet it seems as though, by Facebook saying,
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"We're going to allow political advertising,
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"all political advertising, and we don't really feel it's
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"necessarily a good thing."
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And I'm paraphrasing of course,
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to have fact checking in place for those political ads.
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Those two things are perhaps
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not in alignment with one another.
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Well political ads are their own animal.
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I mean most political ads are highly partisan
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and fact checking, part of the place
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I think you wanna get to
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is to find a way of doing
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some sort of fact checking on these
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that's not so partisan.
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I think, you know, one of the systems that
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I worked on a while ago that the company's
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been vetting with academics is one that would help
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submit to some panel of a representative panel
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of people content in order for them to vet
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whether or not they feel it's misleading.
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And ends up at least according to some of the data
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that the academics were looking at
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ends up being a pretty good system.
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I think the company should investigate and is investigating
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micro-targeting, specifically in the political context
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because the thesis of all of this stuff
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is that it should be out in the open.
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And it is in the political ad archive,
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but if there's hundreds of variants
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being run of a creative then it's tricky
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to get your arms around what's being said to whom.
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I also think exploring more context in the UI
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both in the consumer experience and
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in the political ad archive could be helpful
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at continuing a position where you're looking for ways
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for fact checking to not be so partisan
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while also giving the user or the consumer
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a good experience.
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Spoken like a true product officer.
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Tweak the UI and maybe.
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Well these tweaks are hugely impactful
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so I don't say that lightly.
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And hugely impactful because of the size of the user base?
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Well the whole experience is on a phone
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in a hundred pixels, you know,
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so when you had, you know, 20 more that are helping people
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see other points of view or helping people vet
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sort of whether journalistic institutions have made
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comments about this, there are a bunch of things
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that can be done that I know the company is exploring.
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One more quick question about Facebook.
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How confident are you in Facebook's ability
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to mitigate potential issues that may
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come up as we enter, it feels like we've already entered
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and been in for 20 years, the 2020 election cycle?
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Well, I can tell you the company has a whole bunch
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more resources in terms of money, people,
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partnerships, programs.
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Not just in the United States but with most of the countries
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where major elections are happening.
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To anticipate these things.
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I can't be 100 percent confident, the company can't either.
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But we've put in place a real immune system
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that at least accounts for a lot of the issues
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we saw in 2016 and again saw
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in some of the mid-term elections.
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And have also seen looking at other
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elections around the world.
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So that seems like a good segue to Acronym.
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Yes.
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Tell people what you're doing with Acronym
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and what Acronym is.
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Acronym.
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Acronym.
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Has anyone heard of Acronym?
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One head.
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So one of the problems I've been interested in
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is the progressives in the United States
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having a good technology stack.
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Like good technical infrastructure for understanding
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how to develop messaging and then run campaigns.
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This is an area where my perception is that
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the progressives have been behind
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on ability to develop and use as a team
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infrastructure that helps you have a good voter file,
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how to develop messaging, just basic politics in 2019.
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Again that's my impression and I'm not a political expert.
304
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And you're sitting on the advisory board?
305
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I'm sitting on the board along with
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I'm not sitting on the board of directors,
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but I've been helping to advise Tara,
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raise money, hire a team.
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There's a woman names Tara McGowan who runs Acronym.
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They're based in Washington D.C.
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They work with progressive organizations
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like Planned Parenthood and the ACLU.
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Their mission is to help them effectively
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use social media and the internet.
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And I believe that it's important that such technology
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is available for whomever is our nominee.
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And for the sort of progressive institutions going forward.
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00:13:04.030 --> 00:13:08.378
So you, by participating in these activities with Acronym,
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00:13:08.378 --> 00:13:13.378
you're really aligning yourself with a set of ideologies.
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You're saying they're progressives.
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I've read about it online it says like they want
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to basically, want to "Arm the left
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"with digital tools to help them combat
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"some of the more aggressive tactics of the right."
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Yes.
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And do you feel like you couldn't perhaps have worked
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on something like this in your
328
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role as Chief Products Officer at Facebook?
329
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Absolutely not.
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And why is that?
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I think when you're in a very very senior role at
332
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a platform, you need to be, you have a duty
333
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.833
to be much more neutral in your politics.
334
00:13:47.716 --> 00:13:49.693
Why is that?
335
00:13:49.693 --> 00:13:54.693
I think that's part of running a platform
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00:13:55.070 --> 00:13:56.872
whose customers are across the aisle
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00:13:56.872 --> 00:13:58.180
in a lot of different ways.
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And I think it's part of aiming to have institutions
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00:13:59.987 --> 00:14:02.924
that can bring the country together.
340
00:14:02.924 --> 00:14:04.250
So you're free now?
341
00:14:04.250 --> 00:14:06.299
And this is, in a sense?
342
00:14:06.299 --> 00:14:08.121
I certainly feel more free.
343
00:14:08.121 --> 00:14:10.159
Okay, interesting.
344
00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:12.740
You know, this is something I've wanted
345
00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:14.437
to work on for a while.
346
00:14:14.437 --> 00:14:17.654
And I've come to understand at least in my own analysis
347
00:14:17.654 --> 00:14:20.521
of what happened since 2016
348
00:14:20.521 --> 00:14:22.930
that just good execution
349
00:14:22.930 --> 00:14:25.240
and like running a good campaign,
350
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using the internet, is something where I think
351
00:14:28.514 --> 00:14:31.200
that matters a lot.
352
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.575
Was any of this driven by any sort of
353
00:14:32.575 --> 00:14:35.010
sense of personal responsibility,
354
00:14:35.010 --> 00:14:36.470
for having been a part of Facebook
355
00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:37.600
during the 2016 election cycle?
356
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:38.940
You know, maybe.
357
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.393
Not in a way I have direct access to.
358
00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:44.130
You know I definitely felt
359
00:14:44.130 --> 00:14:46.490
a sense of personal responsibility for cleaning up a lot
360
00:14:46.490 --> 00:14:48.470
of the pieces of the platform that I felt weren't
361
00:14:48.470 --> 00:14:50.672
going well, but this was just a conviction I think.
362
00:14:50.672 --> 00:14:52.853
Trump should not be our president.
363
00:14:54.310 --> 00:14:55.940
The other thing I care a lot about right now
364
00:14:55.940 --> 00:14:59.240
is climate change and he is not going to help us there.
365
00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:04.240
And four more years, you know, at five gigatons a year,
366
00:15:04.300 --> 00:15:06.759
that's a lot of carbon that we're not gonna get
367
00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:10.650
to go back and take back down unless we build
368
00:15:10.650 --> 00:15:13.183
some crazy technology that no one knows about yet.
369
00:15:15.060 --> 00:15:17.110
So in your times since you've left Facebook,
370
00:15:17.110 --> 00:15:18.010
you were saying earlier,
371
00:15:18.010 --> 00:15:23.010
you've spent a lot of time researching climate change?
372
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.310
You have, you're a smart person, you have the resources,
373
00:15:26.310 --> 00:15:29.590
you've really been head's down in this
374
00:15:29.590 --> 00:15:32.460
and you're doing something really interesting with a company
375
00:15:32.460 --> 00:15:33.293
that works with satellite technology.
376
00:15:33.293 --> 00:15:34.126
Yeah.
377
00:15:34.126 --> 00:15:34.959
Talk about this.
378
00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:37.821
Yeah so there's a really neat company called Planet Labs
379
00:15:37.821 --> 00:15:41.800
in San Francisco, more of you are nodding about
380
00:15:41.800 --> 00:15:42.773
them than Acronym.
381
00:15:44.248 --> 00:15:48.610
They build satellites and design the satellites
382
00:15:48.610 --> 00:15:50.717
and build them right here on Harrison Street.
383
00:15:50.717 --> 00:15:53.130
I got to know the CEO and co-founder
384
00:15:53.130 --> 00:15:55.240
Will Marshall very well.
385
00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.570
A bunch of ex-NASA folks work there.
386
00:15:57.570 --> 00:15:59.087
The vision was to build these small,
387
00:15:59.087 --> 00:16:04.087
about shoebox-size satellites with solar panel wings.
388
00:16:04.930 --> 00:16:07.063
And have a fleet of them in space
389
00:16:07.063 --> 00:16:10.460
which is real time imaging the Earth.
390
00:16:10.460 --> 00:16:13.650
So every hour, you get a snapshot of every tile on Earth
391
00:16:13.650 --> 00:16:14.810
at medium resolution.
392
00:16:14.810 --> 00:16:17.666
Which means each pixel is about 3 meters.
393
00:16:17.666 --> 00:16:20.960
So this field has been called remote sensing.
394
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.990
Remote sensing normally was something where you
395
00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:25.790
could get a picture every few weeks or every few months.
396
00:16:26.800 --> 00:16:29.123
But with this sort of time resolution,
397
00:16:29.990 --> 00:16:32.177
you can start to ask questions like,
398
00:16:32.177 --> 00:16:34.487
"What's going on with wildfires today?
399
00:16:34.487 --> 00:16:35.677
"How quickly are they spreading?
400
00:16:35.677 --> 00:16:37.410
"Where are they spreading?"
401
00:16:37.410 --> 00:16:39.696
Deforestation in the Amazon.
402
00:16:39.696 --> 00:16:41.043
Active coal power plants.
403
00:16:41.043 --> 00:16:43.763
How many coal power plants are firing right now?
404
00:16:45.350 --> 00:16:47.062
Methane emissions is on the horizon
405
00:16:47.062 --> 00:16:49.120
as something that we believe.
406
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:54.120
We, the industry of computer vision and satellite folks,
407
00:16:54.530 --> 00:16:56.450
you may be able to see from space.
408
00:16:56.450 --> 00:16:58.335
Which is crazy 'cause it's a gas, but we know methane
409
00:16:58.335 --> 00:17:01.290
is a real contributor and it's coming
410
00:17:01.290 --> 00:17:04.160
from certain farms and refineries and stuff like that.
411
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.883
So if you could identify leaks,
412
00:17:05.883 --> 00:17:10.766
you could start to contribute to having a health system
413
00:17:10.766 --> 00:17:13.591
where you're basically imaging the Earth every hour
414
00:17:13.591 --> 00:17:17.340
and then you're creating some public data set
415
00:17:17.340 --> 00:17:20.261
with tools that plug into decision makers, banks,
416
00:17:20.261 --> 00:17:23.323
insurance companies, policy makers.
417
00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:30.460
Investors, journalists, interested persons, the youth.
418
00:17:32.990 --> 00:17:34.970
Like, I could imagine in a classroom one day,
419
00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:36.540
you go and you say this is the Earth,
420
00:17:36.540 --> 00:17:39.266
here's a simulation of what 2050 looks like.
421
00:17:39.266 --> 00:17:41.990
They're getting pretty ugly by the way.
422
00:17:41.990 --> 00:17:44.430
As we update our assessment of the heating
423
00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:48.260
that we think might happen by 2100.
424
00:17:48.260 --> 00:17:50.357
My wife's from Bangkok, like, it's gone.
425
00:17:50.357 --> 00:17:55.357
And I think we're still doing such a poor job.
426
00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:59.540
We, humanity, of really wrapping our heads around
427
00:18:00.808 --> 00:18:04.760
how few precious years we have
428
00:18:04.760 --> 00:18:06.690
and I've even come to understand this more since
429
00:18:06.690 --> 00:18:07.713
leaving the company.
430
00:18:09.410 --> 00:18:11.450
Which to me is why it's one of the most important
431
00:18:11.450 --> 00:18:12.283
things you do is try and get somebody in office
432
00:18:12.283 --> 00:18:15.332
who can care about this.
433
00:18:15.332 --> 00:18:18.680
So you're advising Planet Labs in addition to Acronym?
434
00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:19.810
Yep.
435
00:18:19.810 --> 00:18:21.880
I have a badge, I'm learning about satellites.
436
00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:22.733
Okay.
437
00:18:24.010 --> 00:18:25.210
I'm learning as much from them
438
00:18:25.210 --> 00:18:29.070
and then I'm trying to help them build some software,
439
00:18:29.070 --> 00:18:30.310
'cause this is like building software
440
00:18:30.310 --> 00:18:32.420
on top of all this really cool satellite imagery.
441
00:18:32.420 --> 00:18:35.056
Have you considered starting your own company
442
00:18:35.056 --> 00:18:36.452
around climate change?
443
00:18:36.452 --> 00:18:38.840
You know, I've thought about it and I've started
444
00:18:38.840 --> 00:18:43.300
to look a little bit at what are some of the gaps.
445
00:18:43.300 --> 00:18:46.138
I'm still so far, I'm still so young at this field
446
00:18:46.138 --> 00:18:49.367
that I don't have enough confidence
447
00:18:49.367 --> 00:18:51.853
in my own mental model of the world.
448
00:18:53.306 --> 00:18:56.310
But it's been really fun starting to go see some
449
00:18:56.310 --> 00:18:59.350
of the technologists working on climate change.
450
00:18:59.350 --> 00:19:03.680
It's been very interesting, you forwarded me an incredible
451
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.177
article in the New Yorker called, 'Money Is The Fuel
452
00:19:07.177 --> 00:19:10.877
"That The Fire Of Climate Change Burns On."
453
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:16.690
And it's specifically about the financial industry
454
00:19:16.690 --> 00:19:18.970
and the insurance industry because there's so much
455
00:19:18.970 --> 00:19:22.650
private money that goes into banks and insurance companies
456
00:19:22.650 --> 00:19:26.211
that then actually finances coal and oil and gas
457
00:19:26.211 --> 00:19:31.211
and that's generally opaque.
458
00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:37.170
To investors, to private wealth funds, to countries,
459
00:19:37.170 --> 00:19:39.370
a lot of whom give their money to banks.
460
00:19:39.370 --> 00:19:41.317
And on the one hand, the country's saying, "We're working
461
00:19:41.317 --> 00:19:45.600
"on a 1.5 degree plan for Japan."
462
00:19:45.600 --> 00:19:46.433
But on the other hand
463
00:19:46.433 --> 00:19:47.747
a lot of their money is actually financing
464
00:19:47.747 --> 00:19:50.853
exactly the problem.
465
00:19:50.853 --> 00:19:54.082
Which is the supply of money to go build new coal
466
00:19:54.082 --> 00:19:58.393
and oil and do fracking and all of that other kind of stuff.
467
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.968
What do you think big tech's responsibility
468
00:20:01.968 --> 00:20:04.263
is when it comes to climate change?
469
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:06.753
Well at the very least,
470
00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:09.483
I think there's gradations.
471
00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:12.422
I think at the very least, it's making a commitment
472
00:20:12.422 --> 00:20:14.193
to being carbon negative.
473
00:20:15.190 --> 00:20:16.674
And that's in manufacturing processes,
474
00:20:16.674 --> 00:20:19.200
that's in shipping even.
475
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.300
Yeah, it's a lot easier for Facebook and Google
476
00:20:21.300 --> 00:20:23.540
than it is for Amazon and Apple.
477
00:20:23.540 --> 00:20:25.146
Because we're not running giant supply chains
478
00:20:25.146 --> 00:20:26.429
and trucking stuff around the world
479
00:20:26.429 --> 00:20:27.936
and packaging things.
480
00:20:27.936 --> 00:20:28.769
So it's easy for Facebook to say
481
00:20:28.769 --> 00:20:33.586
'cause it's basically data centers and buildings.
482
00:20:33.586 --> 00:20:36.680
It's a lot easier to get a data center on renewable energy
483
00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.420
than it is to re-engineer your entire truck
484
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:40.830
and supply chain system which is what
485
00:20:40.830 --> 00:20:42.150
Amazon has to think about.
486
00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:44.430
With that said, admirably, they've made a commitment
487
00:20:44.430 --> 00:20:47.973
to get to carbon neutral, I think it's by 2040.
488
00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:50.143
They've actually said they were going to do it
489
00:20:50.143 --> 00:20:51.930
10 years earlier than everybody else.
490
00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:52.763
That's right, yeah.
491
00:20:52.763 --> 00:20:54.280
So let's see if they can meet that goal.
492
00:20:54.280 --> 00:20:55.947
You know, putting the tactics aside,
493
00:20:55.947 --> 00:20:59.320
tech isn't actually creating that much carbon.
494
00:20:59.320 --> 00:21:03.233
I think Amazon's was 44 million.
495
00:21:04.650 --> 00:21:07.790
I did the math the other day, it's around a percent
496
00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:11.820
of the United States' carbon offset.
497
00:21:11.820 --> 00:21:12.790
Okay.
498
00:21:12.790 --> 00:21:14.750
Which is pretty amazing considering what they do.
499
00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:16.480
One of the interesting metrics to look at is
500
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:19.742
carbon intensity which is per dollar GDP
501
00:21:19.742 --> 00:21:23.860
how much carbon, what's the externality in terms of carbon?
502
00:21:23.860 --> 00:21:25.794
High carbon intensity is a gas company,
503
00:21:25.794 --> 00:21:30.103
extremely low carbon intensity is most tech companies.
504
00:21:30.103 --> 00:21:33.483
But I do think tech can lead.
505
00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:37.790
We're an industry that in some ways is still looked to as
506
00:21:37.790 --> 00:21:40.900
a leader and in some ways is looked at with a squint
507
00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:42.870
to see if we'll improve.
508
00:21:42.870 --> 00:21:44.618
I think that both of those are healthy.
509
00:21:44.618 --> 00:21:47.960
But I think we can start to think about ways
510
00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:52.960
of more carefully dialing in our attention to carbon impact.
511
00:21:55.090 --> 00:21:57.490
And I don't know exactly what that looks like for big tech,
512
00:21:57.490 --> 00:22:02.490
but I believe that sort of riling up employees more
513
00:22:02.798 --> 00:22:07.798
and getting more power into the hands of the officers
514
00:22:09.053 --> 00:22:10.695
who are responsible for this at the company
515
00:22:10.695 --> 00:22:12.495
is ultimately gonna be a good thing.
516
00:22:13.370 --> 00:22:14.957
Chris, I have to let you go, we're out of time
517
00:22:14.957 --> 00:22:16.180
but thank you so much.
518
00:22:16.180 --> 00:22:17.290
Yep, my pleasure.
519
00:22:17.290 --> 00:22:18.321
Thanks everyone, appreciate it.
520
00:22:18.321 --> 00:22:19.154
Thank you everybody.
521
00:22:19.154 --> 00:22:21.295
[audience applauding]