WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.060 --> 00:00:02.460 Hi, Gloria. It's great to see you. [laughs] 2 00:00:02.460 --> 00:00:04.800 It's great to see another magazine woman, 3 00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:07.435 another crazed magazine woman. Yes! [laughs] 4 00:00:07.435 --> 00:00:10.410 [gentle music] 5 00:00:10.410 --> 00:00:12.420 We all at Vanity Fair had been very affected 6 00:00:12.420 --> 00:00:15.720 by the Dobbs ruling, and I thought in that moment, 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:18.480 who better to speak to than Gloria Steinem, 8 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.120 who has been working on these issues 9 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.040 for really, all your career. 10 00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:24.570 It was 50 years ago this fall 11 00:00:24.570 --> 00:00:27.240 that you co-founded Ms. Magazine. 12 00:00:27.240 --> 00:00:30.060 We looked back at the archives for a story, 13 00:00:30.060 --> 00:00:33.060 and found so much resonance in terms 14 00:00:33.060 --> 00:00:34.530 of the issues that you were facing, 15 00:00:34.530 --> 00:00:36.300 the things that you and your reporters were writing 16 00:00:36.300 --> 00:00:37.890 about at that time. Yes, I never know 17 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:41.130 whether it's encouraging because these are basic issues 18 00:00:41.130 --> 00:00:43.780 or discouraging because we're still talking about it. 19 00:00:43.780 --> 00:00:45.060 [Gloria laughs] Right. 20 00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:48.240 But reproductive rights, reproductive freedom, 21 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:51.300 for instance is still basic. Mm-hm. 22 00:00:51.300 --> 00:00:54.030 And you know, the struggle to get a safe 23 00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:56.010 and legal abortion then 24 00:00:56.010 --> 00:00:59.130 and the struggle against state by state, 25 00:00:59.130 --> 00:01:04.130 that possibility now is way too big a parallel. 26 00:01:04.140 --> 00:01:09.140 And I think what we have to keep saying in both cases is 27 00:01:09.720 --> 00:01:13.920 that either we make decisions over our own bodies 28 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:15.600 or we're not living in a democracy. 29 00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:17.640 Mm-hm. I mean, it is fundamental. 30 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:20.010 Women or men, we need to be able 31 00:01:20.010 --> 00:01:22.860 to decide the fate of our own bodies. 32 00:01:22.860 --> 00:01:24.840 I was traveling abroad this summer 33 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:26.610 after the Dobbs ruling came down, 34 00:01:26.610 --> 00:01:29.550 and it was really striking to me 35 00:01:29.550 --> 00:01:32.880 how many people raised that in conversation. 36 00:01:32.880 --> 00:01:36.600 They wanted to know how I felt as an American, as a woman. 37 00:01:36.600 --> 00:01:40.200 People in Europe were really upset by the ruling. 38 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:41.910 They were upset at the path 39 00:01:41.910 --> 00:01:43.890 that they felt America was taking. 40 00:01:43.890 --> 00:01:45.990 They took it almost personally, 41 00:01:45.990 --> 00:01:47.850 and it really did remind me 42 00:01:47.850 --> 00:01:49.560 that we are not just here fighting 43 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:52.023 for reproductive rights in America. 44 00:01:52.860 --> 00:01:57.210 It matters to the world to see us project certain values. 45 00:01:57.210 --> 00:02:01.450 Yes, yes, we're supposed to be a democratic 46 00:02:02.340 --> 00:02:03.840 light in some ways. 47 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:07.050 I mean, so many people have someone 48 00:02:07.050 --> 00:02:10.110 in their families who immigrated here. 49 00:02:10.110 --> 00:02:12.750 That's what we're supposed to stand for. 50 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:15.810 So for us to be the single democracy 51 00:02:15.810 --> 00:02:19.050 in the world without the simple right 52 00:02:19.050 --> 00:02:22.755 of reproductive freedom is really a shame. 53 00:02:22.755 --> 00:02:25.020 [gentle music] 54 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:28.110 One of the things that you brought up in a meeting 55 00:02:28.110 --> 00:02:31.950 that we had about the issue early on was that taking away 56 00:02:31.950 --> 00:02:34.230 or the curtailing of reproductive rights is often 57 00:02:34.230 --> 00:02:36.810 the first step on a road toward fascism. 58 00:02:36.810 --> 00:02:38.400 You know, thank you for raising that 59 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.940 because I don't think we often see this 60 00:02:41.940 --> 00:02:45.510 in a discussion of reproductive rights. 61 00:02:45.510 --> 00:02:47.490 The first thing that Hitler did 62 00:02:47.490 --> 00:02:49.780 as you know when he was elected was 63 00:02:51.090 --> 00:02:54.420 to declare abortion a crime against the state 64 00:02:54.420 --> 00:02:57.540 and to padlock all the family planning clinics. 65 00:02:57.540 --> 00:02:59.550 And Mussolini followed suit. 66 00:02:59.550 --> 00:03:03.630 It was Napoleon III who wanted more soldiers 67 00:03:03.630 --> 00:03:08.557 for his armies, who made a deal with the Pope and said, 68 00:03:08.557 --> 00:03:13.530 "Okay, I will support the doctrine of papal infallibility 69 00:03:13.530 --> 00:03:18.300 if you declare abortion a sin." 70 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:21.692 So there's a root of that history that is about power 71 00:03:21.692 --> 00:03:24.119 and about force. Yes, and why we know that. 72 00:03:24.119 --> 00:03:26.280 Yeah, right. Right, right, right. 73 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.980 There's not quite an understanding 74 00:03:28.980 --> 00:03:33.240 that controlling reproductive 75 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:35.910 processes is fundamental. 76 00:03:35.910 --> 00:03:38.919 And that since we happen to have wombs, you and I, 77 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:42.900 [chuckles] that this makes us targets first, 78 00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:45.360 early at least, targets of control. 79 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:47.670 It's just a reminder, I think, 80 00:03:47.670 --> 00:03:49.800 as people think about the upcoming election 81 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:52.050 and everything that we'll follow, 82 00:03:52.050 --> 00:03:54.523 it's a reminder of what is at stake. 83 00:03:54.523 --> 00:03:56.610 [gentle music] 84 00:03:56.610 --> 00:04:00.480 We tend to look at Washington online or on television, 85 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:01.860 and think that's the source 86 00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:03.120 of everything. Right. 87 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.310 But actually, it is like a tree. 88 00:04:05.310 --> 00:04:08.040 It does start with us. Yeah. 89 00:04:08.040 --> 00:04:10.380 So much of what's important happens 90 00:04:10.380 --> 00:04:12.540 at the state and local level. 91 00:04:12.540 --> 00:04:14.460 I feel like that's never been clearer, 92 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:18.010 and so it's very important to pay attention 93 00:04:19.320 --> 00:04:20.790 to those representatives, 94 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:23.190 to the state legislatures, et cetera. 95 00:04:23.190 --> 00:04:24.840 It's not just about who the president is, 96 00:04:24.840 --> 00:04:26.940 to your point, it's not coming from the top. 97 00:04:26.940 --> 00:04:29.100 Right. Often, leadership is coming 98 00:04:29.100 --> 00:04:31.200 from your community, from your town, from your state, 99 00:04:31.200 --> 00:04:32.823 and like that is where people can make a difference. 100 00:04:32.823 --> 00:04:36.900 Yes, and I think women have a special role to play 101 00:04:36.900 --> 00:04:39.450 because though it's true for men too, 102 00:04:39.450 --> 00:04:42.570 it's more dramatically true for women 103 00:04:42.570 --> 00:04:45.570 that if you don't have power over your own body, 104 00:04:45.570 --> 00:04:46.667 you are not living in a democracy. 105 00:04:46.667 --> 00:04:51.060 Right, right. So this is abortion, 106 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:53.370 the ability to have children, Mm-hm. 107 00:04:53.370 --> 00:04:58.370 whatever it is is not a women's issue, 108 00:04:58.500 --> 00:04:59.550 quote, unquote. 109 00:04:59.550 --> 00:05:01.350 It is a democratic issue. 110 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:05.102 I must say a reminder that though we had Shirley Chisholm 111 00:05:05.102 --> 00:05:07.800 in what, in 1972 I think, 112 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.620 who took the white-male-only sign off the White House door 113 00:05:11.620 --> 00:05:15.210 [chuckles] by running in 14 states. 114 00:05:15.210 --> 00:05:17.370 I remember running as her delegate. 115 00:05:17.370 --> 00:05:18.930 Of course, we didn't win, but you know, 116 00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:23.100 we've never had a female human being as president, 117 00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:24.857 unlike many other democracies. 118 00:05:24.857 --> 00:05:26.610 Right, I went to a celebration 119 00:05:26.610 --> 00:05:29.940 at the Vice President's house last Friday for Divali, 120 00:05:29.940 --> 00:05:32.790 and I told my son the night before that I wouldn't see him 121 00:05:32.790 --> 00:05:34.830 because I was going to the Vice President's house, 122 00:05:34.830 --> 00:05:36.660 and he said, "Oh, you're going to meet her?" 123 00:05:36.660 --> 00:05:38.880 And it came out so naturally from his mouth and I thought, 124 00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:39.990 "This is wonderful. No, that's wonderful. 125 00:05:39.990 --> 00:05:43.170 This is what it should be." Your son is the future. 126 00:05:43.170 --> 00:05:45.287 Yes. I mean, I hope so. [laughs] 127 00:05:45.287 --> 00:05:47.460 [gentle music] 128 00:05:47.460 --> 00:05:48.390 Who are some of the women 129 00:05:48.390 --> 00:05:51.150 who have brought you inspiration? 130 00:05:51.150 --> 00:05:53.070 Well, in the magazine world, 131 00:05:53.070 --> 00:05:56.010 there were women who people maybe don't know 132 00:05:56.010 --> 00:05:56.843 but should know. 133 00:05:56.843 --> 00:05:59.520 I mean, Patricia Carbine for instance, 134 00:05:59.520 --> 00:06:04.320 who had been the editor of Look magazine and then McCall's, 135 00:06:04.320 --> 00:06:06.420 and then she became the editor 136 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:09.180 of Ms. because as she said as a Catholic, 137 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:11.771 she always knew she would have to take the vow of poverty. 138 00:06:11.771 --> 00:06:14.190 [both laughing] Right. 139 00:06:14.190 --> 00:06:17.160 I remember, the first eight of us sat 140 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.910 in a restaurant someplace and fixed each other's salaries, 141 00:06:20.910 --> 00:06:22.530 you know, who had children 142 00:06:22.530 --> 00:06:23.904 and who didn't, Oh, wow. 143 00:06:23.904 --> 00:06:26.760 and based on need, right. Right, 144 00:06:26.760 --> 00:06:30.754 so you were doing live salary adjustment, 145 00:06:30.754 --> 00:06:32.760 but that's amazing. [chuckles] Yes. 146 00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:35.280 And I don't have children and I was living by myself, 147 00:06:35.280 --> 00:06:37.320 but of course, I'm paying rent. 148 00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:38.880 And they gave me an extra couple 149 00:06:38.880 --> 00:06:41.767 of thousand dollars because they said, 150 00:06:41.767 --> 00:06:44.850 "We know 'cause you're traveling all the time 151 00:06:44.850 --> 00:06:48.030 that you will see people who need just a little money 152 00:06:48.030 --> 00:06:50.010 for babysitting or something, 153 00:06:50.010 --> 00:06:52.183 you know, textbooks or whatever." 154 00:06:52.183 --> 00:06:54.300 I was so touched by that. That's amazing. 155 00:06:54.300 --> 00:06:55.980 Right. And it shows that kind 156 00:06:55.980 --> 00:06:57.690 of awareness that you have when you're working 157 00:06:57.690 --> 00:06:59.100 with a group of women of like, well, 158 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:02.310 what are the little challenges here and there that you face? 159 00:07:02.310 --> 00:07:04.890 And it was because I had been at New York Magazine, 160 00:07:04.890 --> 00:07:07.860 which also, we all helped to start. 161 00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:09.630 I could see how different Ms. was. 162 00:07:09.630 --> 00:07:10.740 Mm-hm. 163 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:14.830 We had a round table, not a- Yep, not a hierarchical, 164 00:07:14.830 --> 00:07:17.400 yeah, yeah. [laughs] Right, right, right, right. 165 00:07:17.400 --> 00:07:18.690 With your help, we were able 166 00:07:18.690 --> 00:07:20.100 to do a little feature reporting 167 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:22.800 on some of the women who are working on legal issues 168 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:26.160 and advocating in battleground states, 169 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.410 Mm-hm, yes, that's right. Texas, you know, which is- 170 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:30.780 Everybody should look at this issue to meet more people. 171 00:07:30.780 --> 00:07:32.610 Yes, right. Yes, then that's the goal. 172 00:07:32.610 --> 00:07:34.770 And I feel like that's also the goal 173 00:07:34.770 --> 00:07:35.887 that we constantly have, it's like, 174 00:07:35.887 --> 00:07:37.470 "Well, who can we illuminate? 175 00:07:37.470 --> 00:07:38.970 Who can we put in the spotlight?" 176 00:07:38.970 --> 00:07:40.950 [gentle music] 177 00:07:40.950 --> 00:07:44.100 One possible positive result 178 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:49.100 of the past pandemic is that more men have been at home 179 00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:51.960 with their children and families, 180 00:07:51.960 --> 00:07:52.980 Mm-hm. 181 00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:57.980 and probably have seen and experienced what it takes 182 00:07:59.130 --> 00:08:04.110 to feed and clothe and nurture a family. 183 00:08:04.110 --> 00:08:06.330 Right, yeah. And that's huge. 184 00:08:06.330 --> 00:08:11.330 You know, if we included that in boys' education 185 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.400 as much as we do in girls', 186 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:19.400 that would be not just revolutionary, but transformative. 187 00:08:19.770 --> 00:08:23.490 It's so true, that work was often invisible. 188 00:08:23.490 --> 00:08:27.750 And not only were more men home to see it, 189 00:08:27.750 --> 00:08:31.560 but also there were more opportunities just through Zoom 190 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:34.170 or what have you for people to understand it. 191 00:08:34.170 --> 00:08:38.400 I remember several magazine covers that were, you know, 192 00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:40.512 like a man holding his baby. 193 00:08:40.512 --> 00:08:41.345 [both laughing] Right. 194 00:08:42.300 --> 00:08:44.640 And it happens more often now than it did then. 195 00:08:44.640 --> 00:08:46.980 I mean, you know, to get back to our first point, 196 00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:48.210 there has been progress, 197 00:08:48.210 --> 00:08:49.290 I think. There has been, 198 00:08:49.290 --> 00:08:51.810 and I think we need to see it as fundamental 199 00:08:51.810 --> 00:08:55.980 because often the way men become whole people is 200 00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:59.220 to be nurturing in some sense, 201 00:08:59.220 --> 00:09:01.770 maybe boys as babysitters as much as girls, 202 00:09:01.770 --> 00:09:03.420 you know, whatever it is. 203 00:09:03.420 --> 00:09:06.360 And women become whole people 204 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:10.050 by being active in the world outside the home 205 00:09:10.050 --> 00:09:13.042 so that we all get to be complete. 206 00:09:13.042 --> 00:09:15.330 [gentle music] 207 00:09:15.330 --> 00:09:18.840 Well, we are in November of 2022, 208 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:20.940 and the midterm elections are coming up. 209 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:23.280 Our great hope is that people will go to the polls 210 00:09:23.280 --> 00:09:26.100 because the stakes are high and every election counts. 211 00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:27.960 There's many, many more things that people can do, 212 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:30.300 but the least that someone can do is vote. 213 00:09:30.300 --> 00:09:31.530 Absolutely. 214 00:09:31.530 --> 00:09:34.320 And in a real sense, if you don't vote, you don't exist. 215 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:35.400 Right, right, 216 00:09:35.400 --> 00:09:38.460 which we can't risk that. Right, right. [laughs] 217 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:40.620 And take your children with you. 218 00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:44.847 I mean, my parents, especially my mother used to take me, 219 00:09:44.847 --> 00:09:46.320 and I think it made a difference. 220 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.243 Yeah. Right. It normalizes it. 221 00:09:49.470 --> 00:09:51.330 Well, Gloria, it is always a pleasure 222 00:09:51.330 --> 00:09:52.680 to talk to you about these things. 223 00:09:52.680 --> 00:09:56.760 I come away with new knowledge, but maybe more importantly, 224 00:09:56.760 --> 00:09:57.960 I come away with a feeling 225 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.210 that we can share more understanding, 226 00:10:00.210 --> 00:10:05.207 we can be active in our communities, we can make a change. 227 00:10:05.207 --> 00:10:08.220 And I come away. 228 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:12.480 I, who am still in love with magazines, [laughs] 229 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:15.150 come away with such gratitude. 230 00:10:15.150 --> 00:10:17.940 Well, we were very honored to have you join us 231 00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:21.210 for this issue and it's wonderful to speak to you today. 232 00:10:21.210 --> 00:10:24.810 And I hope that I'll see you again soon. 233 00:10:24.810 --> 00:10:27.180 Yes, we need to make more trouble. 234 00:10:27.180 --> 00:10:28.894 Yes. [laughing] 235 00:10:28.894 --> 00:10:29.727 Okay.